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Taking 20 Too Often
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3358125" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>This is perfectly fine. In fact, even before we had a good skill mechanism in first edition, a decent dungeoneering party could effectively take 20 with 10' poles, and bag of sand, and a decent thief. By comparison to the old method of dungeoneering, taking 20 hardly slows the game up at all.</p><p></p><p>What needs to change is your expectations as a DM. You've got some good advice already. Let me try to expand on it.</p><p></p><p>There are a number of approaches here. Before I go into them, let me make one important note of caution. Don't punish your PC's for investing in search and for playing well. If they avoid traps, so much the better. It should be your expectation that they do so. Whatever you do, don't keep raising search and disarm DC's in responce to a player trying to make his character exceptionally good at that.</p><p></p><p>1) Place traps where they make sense. A trap in a commonly travelled corridor or in a living area is going to not only make no sense in context, but its going to clue your character that they need to be taking 20 all the time. I've long thought the most dangerous trap in Tomb of Horrors is whatever trap you encounter first. After the first one, if you've got any brains at all, you adjust your style of play and go sllllllooooooowwwwwllllllllllllly.</p><p>2) Circumstance modifier. This is my favorite, but it can be over used, so beware. Raise the skill check DC up above the level where anyone but a specialized PC (skill focus and the like) can succeed. But, give a special circumstance which will give the character a hefty bonus if the characters take some appropriate action. For example, you might make the search DC 30 to find the magic pea in the pillow case, but give a +5 bonus if they specifically say that they searching the pillows. Or, you can have a search DC of 30 to find the loose flagstone in the room filled with straw, but a +5 bonus if they sweep the straw out of the room. Or, you can have a search DC of 40 to find the runes on the floor in the room filled with murky water, but a +20 bonus if they find a way of removing the water. Or on a different tack, it might have a DC 35 to open the rusty lock, but if they pour a fine quality oil in the lock it might give a +5 circumstance bonus. Just make sure that your justification is reasonable. If the trapdoor is under a 3'x3' carpet and nothing else is in that 5' square, and the players throughly search the 5' square that the carpet is in the carpet doesn't really add anything significant to the skill check. The skill check assumes reutine things like lifting the carpet. Only use this approach if you can really justify the circumstances as unusual in requiring additional time (action) or tools (resources). </p><p>3) Time pressure: If the PC's take 20 going all the way down a 400 yard long corridor, they'll spend six hours or so game time (plus potty breaks, meals, etc.) on what is almost certainly a pointless task. Sooner or latter PC's will only check for traps when its appropriate and the problem will largely resolve itself. If the PC's obstinately act as if they had forever, design adventures with hard deadlines (something I'd otherwise not advise) and then give them some feedback in the form of minor negative consequences for thier dithering.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 3358125, member: 4937"] This is perfectly fine. In fact, even before we had a good skill mechanism in first edition, a decent dungeoneering party could effectively take 20 with 10' poles, and bag of sand, and a decent thief. By comparison to the old method of dungeoneering, taking 20 hardly slows the game up at all. What needs to change is your expectations as a DM. You've got some good advice already. Let me try to expand on it. There are a number of approaches here. Before I go into them, let me make one important note of caution. Don't punish your PC's for investing in search and for playing well. If they avoid traps, so much the better. It should be your expectation that they do so. Whatever you do, don't keep raising search and disarm DC's in responce to a player trying to make his character exceptionally good at that. 1) Place traps where they make sense. A trap in a commonly travelled corridor or in a living area is going to not only make no sense in context, but its going to clue your character that they need to be taking 20 all the time. I've long thought the most dangerous trap in Tomb of Horrors is whatever trap you encounter first. After the first one, if you've got any brains at all, you adjust your style of play and go sllllllooooooowwwwwllllllllllllly. 2) Circumstance modifier. This is my favorite, but it can be over used, so beware. Raise the skill check DC up above the level where anyone but a specialized PC (skill focus and the like) can succeed. But, give a special circumstance which will give the character a hefty bonus if the characters take some appropriate action. For example, you might make the search DC 30 to find the magic pea in the pillow case, but give a +5 bonus if they specifically say that they searching the pillows. Or, you can have a search DC of 30 to find the loose flagstone in the room filled with straw, but a +5 bonus if they sweep the straw out of the room. Or, you can have a search DC of 40 to find the runes on the floor in the room filled with murky water, but a +20 bonus if they find a way of removing the water. Or on a different tack, it might have a DC 35 to open the rusty lock, but if they pour a fine quality oil in the lock it might give a +5 circumstance bonus. Just make sure that your justification is reasonable. If the trapdoor is under a 3'x3' carpet and nothing else is in that 5' square, and the players throughly search the 5' square that the carpet is in the carpet doesn't really add anything significant to the skill check. The skill check assumes reutine things like lifting the carpet. Only use this approach if you can really justify the circumstances as unusual in requiring additional time (action) or tools (resources). 3) Time pressure: If the PC's take 20 going all the way down a 400 yard long corridor, they'll spend six hours or so game time (plus potty breaks, meals, etc.) on what is almost certainly a pointless task. Sooner or latter PC's will only check for traps when its appropriate and the problem will largely resolve itself. If the PC's obstinately act as if they had forever, design adventures with hard deadlines (something I'd otherwise not advise) and then give them some feedback in the form of minor negative consequences for thier dithering. [/QUOTE]
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