Taking 20 Too Often

[KrazyHades]

My players take 20 on checks all the time, especially on Search and Listen checks. This becomes especially annoying when it comes to placing traps: if the trap is so hard to find that they can't find it on a natural 20 it is unfair, but if it is lower they always find it. I have been thinking of severely increasing the chances of meeting a random encounter (such as a guard who sounds the alarm, forcing the PCs to retreat), but I do not want to be cruel. Should I simply make it much more dangerous to take the time necessary for a "take 20"?

Suggestions, please!

 

[molonel]

I'd simply have fun, and make traps that are REALLY easy to find, and then incredibly hard to disarm.

 

[takasi]

Do they ever use any buff spells? Remember that taking 20 takes 2 minutes for each 5' square. If you place traps in the center of rooms and players are always taking 20, it will take hours to explore a small handful of rooms.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I think you need to be very selective with your traps. For example, having a trap in the middle of nowhere is the best way to grind a game to a halt. All of a sudden, the PCs are searching everywhere for traps just in case.

I prefer traps to be on obvious things such as doors, chests or rooms that just have that feeling that some huge trap is waiting for a foolhardy adventurer to set it off - you know the ones. With all of these, there should be a pay-off for success, be it advancing further or finding loot. However here are several alternatives:

- Raise the DC into the above take 20 range but make the pay-off worth the consequences - mixing it with an encounter can really get the blood pumping, particularly if the trap adds an ongoing element to the encounter.
- Design traps that will be set off if the PC loiters in a particular region, thus forcing them to make a single check and then get out of the way. If they take 20, they find the trap literally by setting it off. Again though, don't overuse this otherwise you make taking 20 redundant and it should always be an option. Give the players cues so they can get a feel for the situation they are in and whether taking 20 might be the better option or not.

The other obvious element is just because you find a trap, does not mean you can automatically disable it. You can't take 20 on disable device (or at least a take 20 is considered to have rolled everything from 1 to 20 thus most likely causing a fail). As such, there is still a chellenge there for the party.

As for taking 20 with other options, I think there are limitations. You can take 10 with most actions but not 20 if failure has consequences. Otherwise, I would not worry about it too much with these elements, let the heroes find what they seek - what they seek may not always be good.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Corsair]

So what if they find the traps? They can't take 20 disabling them.

 

[C.W.Richeson]

I'd recommend calling attention to how long that takes, especially when searching an area. Most areas that have traps also have guards, monsters, and other things to cause the PCs problems.

Keep in mind as well that traps in dungeons are often used tactically by the denizens. There's no better ambush for many monsters than getting PCs with a nasty trap at their back.

 

[painandgreed]

I say increase the time it takes to take 20 for Search. It may take 2 minutes per 5' square if the square is empty. However, searching 5' squares with stuff in them will take much longer. Taking 20 when searching a book shelf means carefully flipping though each book, removing all books from the bookshelf, checking the bookshelf for secret doors and probably moving it. That's going to take much much longer than 2 minutes.

As for Listen, I'd rule that you can only take 20 if the noise is constant and steady, like machinery or somebody singing a song. You probably can't listen for random sounds to see if somebody is in the next making random noise room and take 20 because each sound they might be making is different and in effect not a repeatable attempt. Even if you allow it to see if they hear any noise, unless the noise is being made every round, they'd need to spend at least 20 units of time it takes for each sound to make a check. There might be a guard next door, but unless he's non-stop talking, he's only burping, making jokes, and knocking his equipment against the stone walls once every minute or so. That means taking 20 will take 20 minutes, not 2.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I feel your pain. I'm running Savage Tide, and at first level, with four characters, the take 20 search is 33.

20 + 4 ranks of Search + 3 Int bonus + (three characters each adding +2 by taking 10 on Aid Other) = 33.

This is at first level. No door or trap is too hard to find.

 

[MerricB]

My players take 20 on checks all the time, especially on Search and Listen checks. This becomes especially annoying when it comes to placing traps: if the trap is so hard to find that they can't find it on a natural 20 it is unfair, but if it is lower they always find it. I have been thinking of severely increasing the chances of meeting a random encounter (such as a guard who sounds the alarm, forcing the PCs to retreat), but I do not want to be cruel. Should I simply make it much more dangerous to take the time necessary for a "take 20"?

No. Really, if the PCs are taking 20 all the time to find traps, it's going to eat up time like crazy. A 20'x20' room - small in today's games - takes 32 minutes to search by taking 20. So, any wandering monster tables will probably come up fairly often. Just keep track of time.

When it comes to finding traps on doors and chests, that's fine. Let them take 20. I've found that a PC finding a trap doesn't help them disarm it. Mostly, the disarm checks tend to be very difficult, with a 25%-50% chance of failure.

Cheers!

 

[Celebrim]

This is perfectly fine. In fact, even before we had a good skill mechanism in first edition, a decent dungeoneering party could effectively take 20 with 10' poles, and bag of sand, and a decent thief. By comparison to the old method of dungeoneering, taking 20 hardly slows the game up at all.

What needs to change is your expectations as a DM. You've got some good advice already. Let me try to expand on it.

There are a number of approaches here. Before I go into them, let me make one important note of caution. Don't punish your PC's for investing in search and for playing well. If they avoid traps, so much the better. It should be your expectation that they do so. Whatever you do, don't keep raising search and disarm DC's in responce to a player trying to make his character exceptionally good at that.

1) Place traps where they make sense. A trap in a commonly travelled corridor or in a living area is going to not only make no sense in context, but its going to clue your character that they need to be taking 20 all the time. I've long thought the most dangerous trap in Tomb of Horrors is whatever trap you encounter first. After the first one, if you've got any brains at all, you adjust your style of play and go sllllllooooooowwwwwllllllllllllly.
2) Circumstance modifier. This is my favorite, but it can be over used, so beware. Raise the skill check DC up above the level where anyone but a specialized PC (skill focus and the like) can succeed. But, give a special circumstance which will give the character a hefty bonus if the characters take some appropriate action. For example, you might make the search DC 30 to find the magic pea in the pillow case, but give a +5 bonus if they specifically say that they searching the pillows. Or, you can have a search DC of 30 to find the loose flagstone in the room filled with straw, but a +5 bonus if they sweep the straw out of the room. Or, you can have a search DC of 40 to find the runes on the floor in the room filled with murky water, but a +20 bonus if they find a way of removing the water. Or on a different tack, it might have a DC 35 to open the rusty lock, but if they pour a fine quality oil in the lock it might give a +5 circumstance bonus. Just make sure that your justification is reasonable. If the trapdoor is under a 3'x3' carpet and nothing else is in that 5' square, and the players throughly search the 5' square that the carpet is in the carpet doesn't really add anything significant to the skill check. The skill check assumes reutine things like lifting the carpet. Only use this approach if you can really justify the circumstances as unusual in requiring additional time (action) or tools (resources).
3) Time pressure: If the PC's take 20 going all the way down a 400 yard long corridor, they'll spend six hours or so game time (plus potty breaks, meals, etc.) on what is almost certainly a pointless task. Sooner or latter PC's will only check for traps when its appropriate and the problem will largely resolve itself. If the PC's obstinately act as if they had forever, design adventures with hard deadlines (something I'd otherwise not advise) and then give them some feedback in the form of minor negative consequences for thier dithering.