-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Taking 20 Too Often
- Thread starter KrazyHades
- Start date
Psion
Adventurer
1) I apply wandering monster frequencies or other time constraints.
2) I change the Rogue trap finding ability to a "free roll" whenever passing within the area of effect of a trap, similar to the elf find secret doors ability.
This keeps players from feeling like they have to search continually and only spend extra time where they are really paranoid.
2) I change the Rogue trap finding ability to a "free roll" whenever passing within the area of effect of a trap, similar to the elf find secret doors ability.
This keeps players from feeling like they have to search continually and only spend extra time where they are really paranoid.
Pbartender
First Post
takasi said:
No, you can't.
SRD said:
Besides, it's far more efficient, when searching, to have everyone in the party with a decent Search bonus to split up the area and each search a different area... You effectively divide the time needed to Search by the number of people searching.
Along the same lines as Psion's ideas, I allow for "passive" trap searching by anyone with the Trapfinding ability, and use movement penalties similar to those for Hide or Move Silently...
"While watching for traps, you can move up to one-half your normal speed at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your full speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to find traps while running or charging."
EyeontheMountain
First Post
Remind your players that the sysyem is d20, as in dice 20, not take 20.
Seriously, it is annoying that the rule exists at all in the first place. Take 10 I can agree with, but 20 just makes the d20 redundant for far too many isituations. For my games, I really (ab)use the 'penalty for failure' bit in the rules.
I also get really strict on time, and boy the monsters can prep a lot in the 30 minutes it takes the characters to check a room. It also makes buffs run out like you would not beleive.
DM: Ok, you search the room and find nothing. By the way, your shield, Bull's Enduarance, Protection from Arrows and BLess spells have all run out. What next?
Saying the above helps a lot.
Seriously, it is annoying that the rule exists at all in the first place. Take 10 I can agree with, but 20 just makes the d20 redundant for far too many isituations. For my games, I really (ab)use the 'penalty for failure' bit in the rules.
I also get really strict on time, and boy the monsters can prep a lot in the 30 minutes it takes the characters to check a room. It also makes buffs run out like you would not beleive.
DM: Ok, you search the room and find nothing. By the way, your shield, Bull's Enduarance, Protection from Arrows and BLess spells have all run out. What next?
Saying the above helps a lot.
Pbartender
First Post
...and that reminds me...
Just apply a bit of verisimilitude.
If there's no danger and no rush, then by all means, let the players Take 20. That's what it's there for. In all honesty, I wish my players would remember to use it more often.
But...
There are instances when it is not appropriate. If the players are in a race against the clock, or when there's a chance of enemies wandering in on them, spending half an hour searching a room for a trap that isn't there can mean the difference between the success and failure of the campaign (or at least the adventure). You could also simply rule that the near certain possibility of being discovered in the middle of taking the action constitutes a "threat or distraction", thereby eliminating the possibility of Taking 20.
But that also means you need to make certain the players know when they might expect to find a trap... As someone said above, only place traps and locks in spots where it makes sense they would be. Noone in their right mind would place a hidden pit full spikes in the main entrance of the stronghold, or the hallway that leads from the barracks to the kitchen... Even the coffers in the treasury would liekly be trap-free -- do you really want to take the chance to slipping an killing yourself once a month when the payroll is due?
Never use a trap, when a good lock or a guard would do the job just as well.
Just apply a bit of verisimilitude.
If there's no danger and no rush, then by all means, let the players Take 20. That's what it's there for. In all honesty, I wish my players would remember to use it more often.
But...
There are instances when it is not appropriate. If the players are in a race against the clock, or when there's a chance of enemies wandering in on them, spending half an hour searching a room for a trap that isn't there can mean the difference between the success and failure of the campaign (or at least the adventure). You could also simply rule that the near certain possibility of being discovered in the middle of taking the action constitutes a "threat or distraction", thereby eliminating the possibility of Taking 20.
But that also means you need to make certain the players know when they might expect to find a trap... As someone said above, only place traps and locks in spots where it makes sense they would be. Noone in their right mind would place a hidden pit full spikes in the main entrance of the stronghold, or the hallway that leads from the barracks to the kitchen... Even the coffers in the treasury would liekly be trap-free -- do you really want to take the chance to slipping an killing yourself once a month when the payroll is due?
Never use a trap, when a good lock or a guard would do the job just as well.
Herremann the Wise
First Post
I find it the opposite. My group tells me they are going to do a thorough search of the room and I tell them that x minutes later, they find y. I don't see the point in extending this process (real-time) with individually rolling for each 5 ft. section. It literally adds nothing to the game except wasted time.EyeontheMountain said:
If there are consequences for taking 20, so be it. Easily adjudicated and on most occasions, quite a bit of fun too. I find there's enough rolling of that d20 in a game to keep even the most dice hungry of my players happy.
I find that the take 20 and take 10 rules make the overall process of gaming easier and more fun for my group. YMMV.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
Ant
First Post
1) Taking 20 isn't a bad thing. Adapt your style to fit theirs.
2) Wandering monsters are your friends.
3) How are the PCs Concentration skills? It's difficult for some to keep their attention on the same thing for a long time (particularly if the PCs are Taking 20 for everything) -- focus will waver, low Int PCs might get distracted etc. Call for a few Concentration checks as well. Fail those and maybe you can't Take 20 for an hour or so. Hey, it ain't RAW but it might help keep the PCs on their toes.
2) Wandering monsters are your friends.
3) How are the PCs Concentration skills? It's difficult for some to keep their attention on the same thing for a long time (particularly if the PCs are Taking 20 for everything) -- focus will waver, low Int PCs might get distracted etc. Call for a few Concentration checks as well. Fail those and maybe you can't Take 20 for an hour or so. Hey, it ain't RAW but it might help keep the PCs on their toes.
Bagpuss
Legend
Zaruthustran said:I feel your pain. I'm running Savage Tide, and at first level, with four characters, the take 20 search is 33.
20 + 4 ranks of Search + 3 Int bonus + (three characters each adding +2 by taking 10 on Aid Other) = 33.
This is at first level. No door or trap is too hard to find.
You say that but I imagine the Crucible would prove trick to find the secret doors, because of their locations.
There is no honour spoiler follows.
--------Spoiler below-------
The secret doors are either not at ground level, so won't be detected (unless you think to say you are searching above 5ft up on the wall) if you are inside the crucible. Or the one's leading into the rest of the complex from area 10 happen to be in round rooms with other exits leading off so no reason to search there unless you search every single 5ft square of the complex which would then take you more than a week to complete the adventure.
As for Listen checks if the PC's are taking 20 on there checks to listen at doors then the monsters inside get to take 20 to hear the PC's outside. Also you can't always take 20 on a listen check because the sound isn't constant.
Last edited:
Li Shenron
Legend
Lot's of good suggestions already. I agree with the following:
- don't put traps in random places, or the players will have to be paranoid: put traps in key spots which should be defended (doors, chests) or otherwise to create a decoy (a false way or a false item)
- don't disallow the PC to take as much time as they want (take20) but occasionally make time an issue
- don't worry about the party discovering every single trap, the best part is usually disabling or avoiding it. To improve this, try to make your traps more memorable: don't trap places too often, but when you do, use a trap with a flavorful description (e.g. from books like Grimtooth Traps or Traps & Treachery)
Also remember that traps don't always even neen to be hidden. Think of real life traps: barbed wire is always very visible, an electric wire barrier is ADVERTISED as such. The purpose sometimes is simply to prevent passage, not to kill intruders. Ok, in D&D it is more likely to kill intruders but a visible trap can be just as scary as a hidden one.
- don't put traps in random places, or the players will have to be paranoid: put traps in key spots which should be defended (doors, chests) or otherwise to create a decoy (a false way or a false item)
- don't disallow the PC to take as much time as they want (take20) but occasionally make time an issue
- don't worry about the party discovering every single trap, the best part is usually disabling or avoiding it. To improve this, try to make your traps more memorable: don't trap places too often, but when you do, use a trap with a flavorful description (e.g. from books like Grimtooth Traps or Traps & Treachery)
Also remember that traps don't always even neen to be hidden. Think of real life traps: barbed wire is always very visible, an electric wire barrier is ADVERTISED as such. The purpose sometimes is simply to prevent passage, not to kill intruders. Ok, in D&D it is more likely to kill intruders
but a visible trap can be just as scary as a hidden one.Similar Threads
