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<blockquote data-quote="tzor" data-source="post: 3359418" data-attributes="member: 12826">I personally find taking 20 on search and listen checks exceptionally annoying because I believe that there is a flaw in the logic of when taking 20 should be allowed.&nbsp; Simply put, taking 20 is attempting to try and try again until you either succeed or realize that you can't ever possibly succeed.&nbsp; According to the SRD you can take 20 when, &quot;the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure.&quot;&nbsp; Personally I would like to add the following, &quot;and you have a way to determine if you are successful.&quot;Consider the following:&nbsp; You search the chest for traps.&nbsp; You do not find traps.&nbsp; Were you successful?&nbsp; Well, it was just as possible that you did indeed roll a 20 and there simply were no traps that you could detect at that level, or it could be possible that you just rolled another 1.There is another problem with the taking 20 philosophy.&nbsp; It assumes that previous failures will have no impact on future attempts.&nbsp; Generally speaking that is false, although most of the times it is false in&nbsp; good way as in &quot;well that didn't work so I'll do it differently this time.&quot;&nbsp; Searching, on the other hand, especially searching something you just searched is clearly not something where the fact that previously searching can be ignored or used to an avantage.&nbsp; If you missed something in the first search you will probably miss it again in a second search.On the other hand, so what?&nbsp; Traps should be either the you can find them or you can't, and the later is probably too nasty for general play.&nbsp; It's not in the finding but in the disabling that the key to adventure lies.&nbsp; And since there is a penalty for failure you can't take 20 on disabling the trap.&nbsp; If you are setting up traps that need a roll of 18 to be found then the best way to keep them from being found is to prevent the take 20 the old fashioned way ... &quot;you are faced with no threats or distractions&quot; ...&quot;It appears that the dungeon has been infected with an odd magical virus.&quot;&quot;So that explains why we keep getting 'pop up' porn every minute.&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tzor, post: 3359418, member: 12826"] I personally find taking 20 on search and listen checks exceptionally annoying because I believe that there is a flaw in the logic of when taking 20 should be allowed. Simply put, taking 20 is attempting to try and try again until you either succeed or realize that you can't ever possibly succeed. According to the SRD you can take 20 when, "the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure." Personally I would like to add the following, "and you have a way to determine if you are successful." Consider the following: You search the chest for traps. You do not find traps. Were you successful? Well, it was just as possible that you did indeed roll a 20 and there simply were no traps that you could detect at that level, or it could be possible that you just rolled another 1. There is another problem with the taking 20 philosophy. It assumes that previous failures will have no impact on future attempts. Generally speaking that is false, although most of the times it is false in good way as in "well that didn't work so I'll do it differently this time." Searching, on the other hand, especially searching something you just searched is clearly not something where the fact that previously searching can be ignored or used to an avantage. If you missed something in the first search you will probably miss it again in a second search. On the other hand, so what? Traps should be either the you can find them or you can't, and the later is probably too nasty for general play. It's not in the finding but in the disabling that the key to adventure lies. And since there is a penalty for failure you can't take 20 on disabling the trap. If you are setting up traps that need a roll of 18 to be found then the best way to keep them from being found is to prevent the take 20 the old fashioned way ... "you are faced with no threats or distractions" ... "It appears that the dungeon has been infected with an odd magical virus." "So that explains why we keep getting 'pop up' porn every minute." [/QUOTE]

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