Taking the Rogukan out of OA: Experience? Suggestions? Opinions?

[AFGNCAAP]

Other than the Shugenja, Nezumi and the clan feats, what's Rokugan specific about the mechanics anyway? There's a lot of stuff in OA that's specifically not appropriate for Rokugan for that matter, including several of the races and new core classes.

My key concern was the core classes that did have Rokugan-specific elements in them (the samurai to a degree, but primarily the shugenja, which goes with the four Western elements, while the Shaman & Wu Jen goes with the five Eastern elements). For example, the shugenja not only gain a bonus spell from a certain element, but also a bonus spell from a certain school-clan they're a part of--holy easy would it be to remove the clan-school spell list?

Also, how certain elements would cross over:

* Could a D&D sorcerer learn an OA sorcerer spell if exposed to it? (And thus, do wizards & wu jen have the relatively same power level at each level, or does one class gain something more than the other at an earlier level? And is a spell that's a 3rd level wizard spell in D&D actually a 3rd level spell for a wu jen, or is it higher or lower?) Along the same lines, what spells would change if updated to 3.5?

* Is the "spirit" monster type considered a kind of fey (IIRC, the spirit folk races in FRCS Unapproachable East are treated as a sort of fey, & get Sylvan instead of Spirit Tongue)?

* When would the Honorable magic weapon property kick in? Would it grant its bonuses against a CG character (since Honorable weapons are pretty much for LG/LN characters)?

* What effects would removing the Shadowlands & all of its elements (including Shadow Taint) have on the game/system? For example, if there's no Taint issue for PCs, then the Nezumi immunity to Taint racial ability doesn't come into play at all. (BTW, I like the idea of using the nezumi for my default rat-men/skaven/ratling race).

* How would Oni & other outsiders fit in to the various planes? Do they inhabit another plane of their own? What about using them in FRCS---where would they fit in on the Great Tree cosmology? Or the Great Wheel cosmology if used in Greyhawk?

Other than that, I have a few general questions regarding the Rokugan-influenced OA:

* The current OA version of shugenja depict them as samurai-caste priests/divine spellcasters. Is there any mythological/folklore precedent for this class (I'm thinking Japanese, but can't be sure). If so, could you elaborate on it?

* Do the core classes/races in OA have a lot/too much of a Japanese infleunce? I know samurai do, but then again, there are guidelines for using the class in other Asian cultures?

* How important/built-in is the Honor system in OA? IIRC, the 1st ed. OA Honor system was pretty intense, while the 3rd ed. OA seems to be more like alignment (simple titles, somewhat compared to existing ALs to a degree). What affects would removing it from the game have? (Would it be as much as removing AL from D&D?)

I think that some of these issues could be resolved if (1) WotC upgraded OA to 3.5, whether by a new book or a web enhancement/.pdf release, and (2) WotC used the material from OA (updated, of course) for a mini-game/supplement for FRCS (ala Kara-Tur, or one way to effectively mesh D&D and OA together). IIRC, the Al-Qadim shi'ar (sp?) is getting the 3.5 treatment in an upcoming issue of Dragon, but I'm not sure about OA/Kara-Tur.

And, just to be thorough, here's a question about the AEG d20 Lo5R stuff:

* How well would the core classes work in D&D? Is the Courtier a PC version of the Aristocrat NPC class? Are Ninjas a 20-level core class variant of the assassin (or just another take on the rogue)? Do they have class abilities/mechanics that wouldn't convert over well to regular D&D or OA? How different is the AEG Samurai from the OA Samurai?

Thanks for the replies! I'd appreciate any more info/comments that you can provide.

 

[Tonguez]

It's easy to run a non-Rokugan OA game if you don't mind doing some research. I ran a Vietnamese-based OA campaign for about a year, and even wrote a story hour based on it. You just have to know your setting and then make some cuts.

As a general rule of thumb I threw anything labeled "Rokugan-specific" in the book right out. I then threw out anything that seemed Japanese to me, since I was running a game based in southeast Asia. For classes I dispensed with the samurai and shugenja - I believe I used the barbarian, bard, fighter, monk, ranger (dang-ki), rogue, shaman, sohei (no-sheng), sorcerer (yao ren) and wizard (wu jen). I removed the hengeyokai, spirit folk and shapeshifters, but left in the nezumi under a different name and made good use of the varana (also under a different name). I removed the Iajitsu Focus skill and all related feats, and using the handy chart in the OA book as well as some internet resources I used the non-Japanese names of the various OA weapons (for instance, the naginata became the kama-do). None of the various Shadowlands and Taint stuff was used, either.

I downloaded and printed a lot of source material courtesy of Google and got familiar with Vietnamese culture, legends and such. All told, I put about two weeks of research into it before designing the campaign, and it had a modest run before players decided they wanted to go back to regular (re: boring, plain, whitebread ) D&D.

But I'm not bitter.

Gotta say that I for one really enjoyed ForceUsers Story Hour (read it for ideas on non-Rokugan OA)

Personally I've also played in a Mahasarpa campaign (the India-based OA setting, where the Rokugan Clans are reinterpreted as 'Nations') I played a Psychic Warrior and had a blast

 

[Desdichado]

Wow, you're not trying to remove Rokugan from OA, you're trying to integrate OA into a more traditional cosmology! I think you're better off just ignoring "Western" D&D entirely in favor of the OA variants if you want an "Asian-themed" game.

But that doesn't have too much to do with removing Rokugan. The Honor system, oni, spirit subtypes and the like are all fine in settings other than Rokugan already.

EDIT: Hmmm... that's not as helpful on re-reading as I thought. Let me reply in a seperate post and address your specific line items.

 

[Psion]

Gotta say that I for one really enjoyed ForceUsers Story Hour (read it for ideas on non-Rokugan OA)

Also read Silver Moon's Chinese Take Out story hour. IIRC, it actually uses Kara Tur.

Anyways, AFGNCAAP, I had a post responding to all your line items, but I deleted it because I found that for all the points I hadn't answered already, I was answering "DM call"...

 

[Desdichado]

My key concern was the core classes that did have Rokugan-specific elements in them (the samurai to a degree, but primarily the shugenja, which goes with the four Western elements, while the Shaman & Wu Jen goes with the five Eastern elements). For example, the shugenja not only gain a bonus spell from a certain element, but also a bonus spell from a certain school-clan they're a part of--holy easy would it be to remove the clan-school spell list?

Well, I'd recommend ditching the shugenja entirely. I think the shugenja is the most blatant "Rokuganism" in the book.

* Could a D&D sorcerer learn an OA sorcerer spell if exposed to it? (And thus, do wizards & wu jen have the relatively same power level at each level, or does one class gain something more than the other at an earlier level? And is a spell that's a 3rd level wizard spell in D&D actually a 3rd level spell for a wu jen, or is it higher or lower?) Along the same lines, what spells would change if updated to 3.5?

That's, again, not a question about removing Rokugan from OA, but of integrating OA into a "regular" campaign. That's a completely different kettle of fish, deserving of it's own discussion and probably it's own thread. I'd recommend against mixing the two books together for the most part; especially in terms of mixing the spell lists.

* Is the "spirit" monster type considered a kind of fey (IIRC, the spirit folk races in FRCS Unapproachable East are treated as a sort of fey, & get Sylvan instead of Spirit Tongue)?

No, spirit type is spirit type. In an OA campaign, your traditional fey don't make much sense. Trying to retrofit spirit creatures into fey don't make much sense, IMO.

* When would the Honorable magic weapon property kick in? Would it grant its bonuses against a CG character (since Honorable weapons are pretty much for LG/LN characters)?

Absolutely! Why not?

* What effects would removing the Shadowlands & all of its elements (including Shadow Taint) have on the game/system? For example, if there's no Taint issue for PCs, then the Nezumi immunity to Taint racial ability doesn't come into play at all. (BTW, I like the idea of using the nezumi for my default rat-men/skaven/ratling race).

No effect at all.

* How would Oni & other outsiders fit in to the various planes? Do they inhabit another plane of their own? What about using them in FRCS---where would they fit in on the Great Tree cosmology? Or the Great Wheel cosmology if used in Greyhawk?

See, again, this doesn't have anything to do with removing Rokugan, and a lot more to do with integrating Greyhawk. My preference would be to keep an oriental themed game be oriental themed and not cross over to begin with. The outsider paradigm of the OA book doesn't have anything in common with Greyhawk "Great Wheel" cosmology.

* The current OA version of shugenja depict them as samurai-caste priests/divine spellcasters. Is there any mythological/folklore precedent for this class (I'm thinking Japanese, but can't be sure). If so, could you elaborate on it?

Not exactly as constituted, at least as far as I know. Especially the samurai caste aspect of the shugenja.

* Do the core classes/races in OA have a lot/too much of a Japanese infleunce? I know samurai do, but then again, there are guidelines for using the class in other Asian cultures?

The core races include a lot of creatures that are not Japanese in influence too, though. Well at least a few. The Varana, for example, or the wu-jen are not Japanese.

* How important/built-in is the Honor system in OA? IIRC, the 1st ed. OA Honor system was pretty intense, while the 3rd ed. OA seems to be more like alignment (simple titles, somewhat compared to existing ALs to a degree). What affects would removing it from the game have? (Would it be as much as removing AL from D&D?)

I don't recall seeing that many of the spells were honor-influencing, so removing honor should be relatively simple to do. Then again, removing alignment from D&D isn't really all that hard either.

I think that some of these issues could be resolved if (1) WotC upgraded OA to 3.5, whether by a new book or a web enhancement/.pdf release, and (2) WotC used the material from OA (updated, of course) for a mini-game/supplement for FRCS (ala Kara-Tur, or one way to effectively mesh D&D and OA together). IIRC, the Al-Qadim shi'ar (sp?) is getting the 3.5 treatment in an upcoming issue of Dragon, but I'm not sure about OA/Kara-Tur.

See, that's the real thing, isn't it? I'd not be in favor of meshing OA and D&D together, because it obliviates the whole point of playing OA in the first place; to have the Asian flavor.

* How well would the core classes work in D&D? Is the Courtier a PC version of the Aristocrat NPC class? Are Ninjas a 20-level core class variant of the assassin (or just another take on the rogue)? Do they have class abilities/mechanics that wouldn't convert over well to regular D&D or OA? How different is the AEG Samurai from the OA Samurai?

Rokugan classes work just fine. Courtier isn't just a PC version of the Aristocraft; he's less effective in combat than the aristocrat, but much, much more effective in social situations. He's really a pretty unique animal. Ninjas would work fine as well; they may in fact be little more than slightly underpowered fighter/rogue variants.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

Wow, you're not trying to remove Rokugan from OA, you're trying to integrate OA into a more traditional cosmology! I think you're better off just ignoring "Western" D&D entirely in favor of the OA variants if you want an "Asian-themed" game.

But that doesn't have too much to do with removing Rokugan. The Honor system, oni, spirit subtypes and the like are all fine in settings other than Rokugan already.

EDIT: Hmmm... that's not as helpful on re-reading as I thought. Let me reply in a seperate post and address your specific line items.

To a certain degree, yes---I think it'd be nice information to have for DMs who may have PCs from various cultures (for example, a FRCS adventuring group consisting of some Faerun PCs, some Kara-Tur PCs, and maybe even a Maztica &/or Zakhara PC--why'd they'd even be adventuring together is a story of its own, but...).

IMC, the PCs will start off in the "western" D&D campaign setting, but it'd be possible for some of the players to select OA races & classes if they want--primarily, they'd be from a sub-culture found in a coastal town that trades with the "eastern" lands, or possibly as ambassadors/emissaries (or servants/family thereof) to the "west." Later on the campaign, the PCs will travel to the "east," (possibly as ambassadors or merchants, or just simply on a quest) and adventure there for a while until they return back to the "west" again.

(FYI, reason for the quotes is for our own reference--IMC, the D&D culture(s) mainly resides north of the equator, while the OA culture(s) reside south of the equator).

And to a degree, just having a bit of a mix, as well as a means to explain a few things. OA-style monks spread to the D&D-style lands for purposes of spreading their faith/philosophy--thus the presence of the monk class in the D&D realm. The main religious figure of the elves (and elven religion) is basically the shaman from OA. Nezumi would be the skaven/ratmen of the setting, & could be found most anywhere.

I appreciate all the responses! Keep `em coming!

 

[Psion]

No, spirit type is spirit type. In an OA campaign, your traditional fey don't make much sense. Trying to retrofit spirit creatures into fey don't make much sense, IMO.

I disagree with this, and in general, that you shouldn't try to meld the world into a consistent whole. But then, I primarily say this from the perspective that is what I do in my world.

The idea of animism exists in societies beyond the orient, and I see no reason that it can't exist in a standard fantasy campaign. Indeed, one of my main cultures in my standard campaigns has a strong animist tradition.

Green Ronin's Shaman's Handbook takes this issue on the chin, and defines most outsiders and IIRC fey (I would make fey spirits) and creatures with the incorporeal subtype spirits.

I think fey as they exist in western myth as transalted by D&D is very close to the idea of spirits in eastern myth. The dryad, for example, is a tree spirit extremely similar to spirits that occupy plants in eastern myth.

So, to reiterate: I would call most outsiders, fey, and incorporeal creatures "spirits" for the purposes of effects that target such.

Well, I'd recommend ditching the shugenja entirely. I think the shugenja is the most blatant "Rokuganism" in the book.

I'll second that, but I think I already said that.

* How would Oni & other outsiders fit in to the various planes? Do they inhabit another plane of their own? What about using them in FRCS---where would they fit in on the Great Tree cosmology? Or the Great Wheel cosmology if used in Greyhawk?

See, again, this doesn't have anything to do with removing Rokugan, and a lot more to do with integrating Greyhawk. My preference would be to keep an oriental themed game be oriental themed and not cross over to begin with. The outsider paradigm of the OA book doesn't have anything in common with Greyhawk "Great Wheel" cosmology.

As depicted in MotP 3e, no. That said, prior editions of the game placed them there, and if you are placing Asian mythical figures in the same cosmology, this is not an untenable approach. And again, what I do.

As a "what I do" which you can use for inspiration if you want: various Rokugan books (primarily Fortunes & Winds) and other books about Shamanism speak about a spirit world, where honorable spirits dwell, but not the heavens. Likewise, there is a realm of the dead that is not the hells.

As incorporeal creatures are spirits in this approach, and are linked to the ethereal plane, I link the two. The ethereal plane can be entered from the prime, but you can travel from the ethereal plane to the spirit world.

Likewise, I take a bead from the oriental hardpoint website and make the shadowlands and the plane of shadow connected. I do not have the Shadowlands as a place in my game, but a plane (and since I got Portals & Planes by FFG, I think of the Rokugan Shadowlands as a malignancy of the shadowlands plane on Rokugan). So, in my game, the "shadow realms" are a plane in which malignant spirits dwell.

The spirit world connects to the upper outer planes, and is sort of a "pathway to the heavens."

Likewise, the shadow realms extends to the lower outer planes.

IIRC, the old 1e and 2e resources had most of the realms of Asian mythological figures of evil in Gehenna or Acheron. I would make these natural places where oni congregate in the outer planes.

Not exactly as constituted, at least as far as I know. Especially the samurai caste aspect of the shugenja.

I do think I read some reference about aristocrats practicing genja, elemental magic derived from Taoism. But by my reading, it seemed like a hobby for bored nobles. There were no special positions particularly for buke pracicing such skills that I know of.

How different is the AEG Samurai from the OA Samurai?

I answered this in an earlier reply.

As for ninja: the Rokugan ninja are more fighterly than a core assassin or rogue. Personally, I think OA made the right call by making you use the rogue, fighter, and (possibly) wu jen classes to make one, and uning ninja spy and assassin prestige classes for them. I think it better represents the ninja and gives you more flexibility to boot. (In fact, I think the assassin class works better as a ninja than it does a western assassin. I don't recall western assassins being accorded with magical abilities, but I do recall such for the ninja.)

From what I understand, the Rokugan ninja are more representative of the "hell on wheels" type ninja that appears in the L5R books. I would ditch it.

The courtier I would keep. If your Asian-themed campaigns run anything like mine, it is perfectly suited to the environment of political interplay, social face, and strict rules of honor and engagement.

 

[trilobite]

Well, I'd recommend ditching the shugenja entirely. I think the shugenja is the most blatant "Rokuganism" in the book.

I don't think that is completely true. Shugenja were originally found in the Bushido role-playing game which was a fantasy feudal Japan setting. Really much of the Japanese elements for the Five Rings game came from Bushido.

 

[Desdichado]

Psion, true, many of the things I mentioned certainly can be done, ala putting the oni in Gehenna or Acheron, etc. I still feel if you're going to focus on a strong Asian-theme, then you don't want to mix Great Wheel cosmology with "Asian" cosmology, and although fey and spirit are similar, spirit creatures speaking Sylvan, for instance, seems to be just silly.

However, it seems from the post above that what AFGNCAAP is trying to do is integrate an "Asian" area to a more traditional game area, so many of my comments aren't applicable there.

Actually if that premise had been made more clear at the beginning, I probably wouldn't have said them at all. I thought this was about non-Rokugan OA campaigns, not campaigns that feature Oriental and Occidental Adventures side by side.

 

[Psion]

Shugenja were originally found in the Bushido role-playing game which was a fantasy feudal Japan setting. Really much of the Japanese elements for the Five Rings game came from Bushido.

The Shugenja in Bushido were not in implicit part of the buke or kuge castes. That is why (I think) Josh calls them a blatant Rokuganism.