Pathfinder 2E Taking20 -"I'm Quitting Pathfinder 2e Because of This Issue"

[Thomas Shey]

I think you're confusing me with other people here; I've not made a single comparison to 5e, because I don't know it well to do so. I'm just noting that simply listing the number of feats in PF2e can give an impression of a much more unmanageable volume than is, in practice, real; its a world of difference between it and either PF1e feats or D&D3e feats (or in practice, even D&D4e feats though there was more practical siloing there than was always obvious).

This is the sort of thing that is often brought up as an excuse to suggest that PF2e is over-complicated, and when presented as such borders on the disingenuous, since virtually no one, unless they're playing in many games with different characters, needs to come close to keep track of all those feats. Even within a given class its often the case that once you settle on a general approach you can discard a number of class feats out of hand; for example a sword-and-board Fighter can pretty much ignore the two-handed weapon feats most of the time, and likely the two-weapon ones too. If he wants to keep it simple, he can also write-off the one-one-handed-weapon related ones.

Now if you're not doing that, that's fine, but I can promise there are people in this thread who have been.

 

[dave2008]

I think you're confusing me with other people here; I've not made a single comparison to 5e, because I don't know it well to do so.

My apologies, I was just continuing a conversation and didn't really notice who I was reply too.

I'm just noting that simply listing the number of feats in PF2e can give an impression of a much more unmanageable volume than is, in practice, real; its a world of difference between it and either PF1e feats or D&D3e feats (or in practice, even D&D4e feats though there was more practical siloing there than was always obvious).

Sure, but compared to 5e (which we were doing, even if you were not) it has a lot more choices. That is something to be celebrated, not diminished IMO. If you will not I neve said PF2e was "unmanageable," as you suggest.

This is the sort of thing that is often brought up as an excuse to suggest that PF2e is over-complicated, and when presented as such borders on the disingenuous, since virtually no one, unless they're playing in many games with different characters, needs to come close to keep track of all those feats.

OK, but that is not what I was doing.

Even within a given class its often the case that once you settle on a general approach you can discard a number of class feats out of hand; for example a sword-and-board Fighter can pretty much ignore the two-handed weapon feats most of the time, and likely the two-weapon ones too. If he wants to keep it simple, he can also write-off the one-one-handed-weapon related ones.

Yes, but that is true of 5e too.

The point of my conversation was in comparison to 5e. I realize you are trying to duck that comparison, but by quoting me you entered into a conversation that was specifically comparing 5e and PF2e feats.

PF2e feats are more numerous and require more choices than 5e. That really shouldn't be debatable. In fact, I will state again, I think that is one of the strengths of PF2e. It scratches a certain itch for people the 5e can't. There is no value, IMO, in suggesting that the difference is less than it is.

 

[Thomas Shey]

My apologies, I was just continuing a conversation and didn't really notice who I was reply too.

Its not an uncommon situation.

PF2e feats are more numerous and require more choices than 5e. That really shouldn't be debatable. In fact, I will state again, I think that is one of the strengths of PF2e. It scratches a certain itch for people the 5e can't. There is no value, IMO, in suggesting that the difference is less than it is.

And that's not what I was every debating. That's a discussion between you and someone else, but I stand by the opinion that simply looking at number of feats does not do what some people will try to do with it. Frankly, I don't care much about the comparison with 5e.

 

[Justice and Rule]

PF2e feats are more numerous and require more choices than 5e. That really shouldn't be debatable. In fact, I will state again, I think that is one of the strengths of PF2e. It scratches a certain itch for people the 5e can't. There is no value, IMO, in suggesting that the difference is less than it is.

I think the problem is that people calling that "clutter" simply on the basis of numbers misses the differences in the system, and that feats are more broadly integrated compared to 5E. Same with conditions.

 

[dave2008]

Its not an uncommon situation.

True/

, but I stand by the opinion that simply looking at number of feats does not do what some people will try to do with it.

Just to be clear I was never trying to suggest anything otherwise.

However, since you brought it up, it does have that effect for some people. I mean when I look at a making a character in PF2e I am overwhelmed. I know those feats and choices are siloed, but a can't stop myself from seeing the whole thing. I have the same issues with spells. That is why I almost never play spell casters.

 

[dave2008]

I think the problem is that people calling that "clutter" simply on the basis of numbers misses the differences in the system, and that feats are more broadly integrated compared to 5E. Same with conditions.

Clutter is a bit subjective though. What is clutter to some on this forum (he who is not to be named) may not be to others. Both positions can be true.

As an example, the CRB has feats in different sections: general, race, class instead all feats in one section. That could be less clutter to some and more to others. Personally I find it less clustered, but more frustrating. I don't like have to jump between sections to find my feats. Everyone is different.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Just to be clear I was never trying to suggest anything otherwise.

However, since you brought it up, it does have that effect for some people. I mean when I look at a making a character in PF2e I am overwhelmed. I know those feats and choices are siloed, but a can't stop myself from seeing the whole thing. I have the same issues with spells. That is why I almost never play spell casters.

Decision paralysis is absolutely a thing, but, well, to be blunt, when the system separates things off so you don't have to try and drink the sea, if you insist on doing it anyway, I can't see that as a problem with the system.

 

[dave2008]

Decision paralysis is absolutely a thing, but, well, to be blunt, when the system separates things off so you don't have to try and drink the sea, if you insist on doing it anyway, I can't see that as a problem with the system.

I didn't think you would. Of course I never said it was the systems fault. I just said it is a real thing.

Personally, for me it didn't matter that the rogue feats are gated by level. When I was making my character, I had to try to look over all the feats for the rogue. Part of this is simply being curious of the options presented and part of it is figuring out where my character might go. Sure, I didn't check out the other class feats after I chose my class (I always choose rogues first), but even just the one classes feats where to much, and I still had race and general & skill feats to review. It was just to much so I stopped. I'm not saying it is the systems fault, I am just saying making characters in PF2e is not ideal for me. I am still interested in playing and if I join a group I will power through and make my rogue. But I just can't motivate myself to do it at this point.

 

[ScYork]

Personally I could care less what Cody thinks about PF2, he's just a guy with any opinion (misguided as it is). If you like PF2 because its perceived as more crunchy then 5E, then play it. Personally I like both PF2 and 5E, I believe each system brings real (not illusory) choice to TTRPGs and each brings something unique. I'm surprised at how many people are getting bogged in the minutia of which system brings more choice, there is no correct answer...but this is just my opinion. Cheers and happy gaming

 

[Starfox]

Procedural question: Is this post about saying what made you quit PF2 and then having people debate if you were right? If X made me quit, it was obviously important enough to me. Debating it seems both futile and counterproductive - if we want people to come forward and say what they didn't like, forcing them to defend their views seems like it would scare off posters. I certainly do not feel encouraged to post my reasons here.