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<blockquote data-quote="Mal Malenkirk" data-source="post: 4635860" data-attributes="member: 834">1 - If the defender's role was self defeating, you could do without one easily.This isn't the case.&nbsp; IMO, the defender is the most sorely missed role in a 4 man team if he is absent.&nbsp; He is the lynchpin of the team.&nbsp; He is like the offensive line on the football field; not the most glamorous role but without a good one the QB can't do squat and the team loses every game.&nbsp; The line buy the QB time so he can make his play.Same with the defender.&nbsp; His role isn't specifically taking a hit for the team though it's part of his arsenal.&nbsp; His role is defending.&nbsp; The defender, obviously enough, increases the team's defense.&nbsp; Whether he does it by taking a hit himself or by making a hit on other PCs harder and more onerous, it's the same result.&nbsp; The defense of the team has improved.&nbsp; The softer PCs don't go down nearly as fast with the defender in front of them and they have time to do their schtick.That's what the defender role really does, mathematically; He allows other PCs more actions before they are shut down, just like the offensive line buys the QB seconds before he is sacked.&nbsp; 2 - Absent a defender, monsters wouldn't automatically focus on the striker.&nbsp; In large melees, they focus on the controller (wizard) who often does more total damage than the striker in these situations.&nbsp; It's my experience, anyway.&nbsp; With 4+ enemies on the field, my combat mage is attacked every time the DM can manage it and he's the one who sticks to the defender like glue, not the rogue.&nbsp; But obviously the rogue is also a prime target, especially agains big boss like Dragons.&nbsp; And so is the leader in any circumstances.&nbsp; In truth, in a balanced 4 team group, shutting down any of the 4 PCs is very bad and is likely to be followed by a rout.&nbsp; That's why it's actually in the team's interest that the monsters succeed in attacking other PCs on a regular basis.&nbsp; If you ever reach the last fight of the day and the defender get dropped with no more HS but the wizard still has 6, you have failed to distribute hits efficiently.&nbsp; Oh, you are about to get your ass kicked, too.The football metaphor ends here; the defender shouldn't aim to take all hits and stop all hits against others even if he could.&nbsp; He must simply grant the team a solid discount on their expenditure of HP, so to speak.&nbsp; Simply put, it should take more attack rolls to bring down a team with a defender than one without.&nbsp; If we were able to measure how many more rolls are required, that would be the exact game value of the defender.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mal Malenkirk, post: 4635860, member: 834"] 1 - If the defender's role was self defeating, you could do without one easily. This isn't the case. IMO, the defender is the most sorely missed role in a 4 man team if he is absent. He is the lynchpin of the team. He is like the offensive line on the football field; not the most glamorous role but without a good one the QB can't do squat and the team loses every game. The line buy the QB time so he can make his play. Same with the defender. His role isn't specifically taking a hit for the team though it's part of his arsenal. His role is [I]defending[/I]. The defender, obviously enough, increases the team's defense. Whether he does it by taking a hit himself or by making a hit on other PCs harder and more onerous, it's the [I]same[/I] result. The defense of the team has improved. The softer PCs don't go down nearly as fast with the defender in front of them and they have time to do their schtick. That's what the defender role really does, mathematically; He allows other PCs more actions before they are shut down, just like the offensive line buys the QB seconds before he is sacked. 2 - Absent a defender, monsters wouldn't automatically focus on the striker. In large melees, they focus on the controller (wizard) who often does more total damage than the striker in these situations. It's my experience, anyway. With 4+ enemies on the field, my combat mage is attacked every time the DM can manage it and he's the one who sticks to the defender like glue, not the rogue. But obviously the rogue is also a prime target, especially agains big boss like Dragons. And so is the leader in [I]any[/I] circumstances. In truth, in a balanced 4 team group, shutting down any of the 4 PCs is very bad and is likely to be followed by a rout. That's why it's actually in the team's interest that the monsters succeed in attacking other PCs on a regular basis. If you ever reach the last fight of the day and the defender get dropped with no more HS but the wizard still has 6, you have failed to distribute hits efficiently. Oh, you are about to get your ass kicked, too. The football metaphor ends here; the defender shouldn't aim to take all hits and stop all hits against others even if he could. He must simply grant the team a solid discount on their expenditure of HP, so to speak. Simply put, it should take more attack rolls to bring down a team with a defender than one without. If we were able to measure how many more rolls are required, that would be the exact game value of the defender. [/QUOTE]

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