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<blockquote data-quote="Thomas5251212" data-source="post: 2179453" data-attributes="member: 31221">Yes, I should have made that clear.The problem with that is that most of the creatures that have good touch AC also have good Reflex saves; I realize not all Evokes have Reflex saves but the majority do.; and most of those that don't have Fortitude which isn't usually much better outside of the Rogue case.Most of the mages I've seen have been between the two, usually because of Gauntlets of Dexterity, but not a lot higher than your base; I'd have said +9 or +10.&nbsp; Note that against everything but your rogue they hit on a 2 or 3.Actually, I've never seen a 10th level PC type with that low a save at that level.&nbsp; They might be from base, but given how cheap Resistance items are, it's almost certainly going to be at least +8, and that's assuming no Dexterity enhancement.&nbsp; Monsters don't do as well, but they may well be getting more base off of hit dice since CR doesn't map to dice.I'm thinking this ignores how many opponents a typical D&amp;D character goes up against that has bad touch AC; almost anything large or larger, for example.&nbsp; Even your default examples weren't hard.&nbsp;&nbsp; Outside of rogues and monks, and among monsters the incorporeals, there's just not that much that seems to have a good touch AC (this doesn't mean there's nothing but they're few and far between).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Thomas5251212, post: 2179453, member: 31221"] Yes, I should have made that clear. The problem with that is that most of the creatures that have good touch AC also have good Reflex saves; I realize not all Evokes have Reflex saves but the majority do.; and most of those that don't have Fortitude which isn't usually much better outside of the Rogue case. Most of the mages I've seen have been between the two, usually because of Gauntlets of Dexterity, but not a lot higher than your base; I'd have said +9 or +10. Note that against everything but your rogue they hit on a 2 or 3. Actually, I've never seen a 10th level PC type with that low a save at that level. They might be from base, but given how cheap Resistance items are, it's almost certainly going to be at least +8, and that's assuming no Dexterity enhancement. Monsters don't do as well, but they may well be getting more base off of hit dice since CR doesn't map to dice. I'm thinking this ignores how many opponents a typical D&D character goes up against that has bad touch AC; almost anything large or larger, for example. Even your default examples weren't hard. Outside of rogues and monks, and among monsters the incorporeals, there's just not that much that seems to have a good touch AC (this doesn't mean there's nothing but they're few and far between). [/QUOTE]

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