Targeting into Concealment

[Jhulae]

EDIT:

I like Hyp's response better than mine.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So since we are using "touch" as being less than 25 ft (i.e., within the specified range) - what attack roll is made?

Ranged attack or melee one?

We're not using "touch" as being less than 25 feet, but if you're asking if we can make a ranged attack against a creature we're touching... certainly, why not?

How about a dagger. It has a range increment of 10ft. Can you throw it at a target you are "touching" - it is within the 10 ft range?

Certainly, why not? You'll provoke an AoO if they threaten you, for making an attack with a ranged weapon. You'll use your Dex modifier instead of your Str modifier. You aren't holding the dagger any more. You get the halfling bonus to attack rolls with thrown weapons. There are a whole lot of differences between a melee attack and a ranged attack.

In fact, if it's a light weapon, it looks like you can even throw it at him if you're grappling (at a -4)...

-Hyp.

 

[ThirdWizard]

irdeggman, you have to at least quote something or show some rules for what you're saying. I told you how RAW works. Saying I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong. Proove it if I am, otherwise, accept it.

 

[irdeggman]

irdeggman, you have to at least quote something or show some rules for what you're saying. I told you how RAW works. Saying I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong. Proove it if I am, otherwise, accept it.

All right let's look at this way.

If we are ignoring the range requirements and using the text under "target spells" to supecede the text for ranges then the following condition exists.

Cure Light Wounds is a targeted spell with a range of touch. If we say that the rules under Target or Targets supecede this by the bolded text then a player can say that "If I can see my target then I can cast Cure Light Wounds on them, I don't need to "touch them" sicne the text says that I must be able to "see" or "touch" them.

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells.

Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Hyp and I are not disagreeing about the fact that the text under taget does not supercede the text for ranges, only what contitutes a range. Basically he is saying that touch is within the range of "ragned" spells (i.e., short and longer distances).

Some people believe that the text under targets supecedes ranges - this is the falicy. The text under targets includes all of the ways a targeted spell can be delivered and not that one method overrides or replaces another one. Some spells are deliverable by touch and some are deliverable via sight.

Now the basis of your discussion stated out with dismissing "touch" range spells (palcing it into house-rules or out side of the RAW in the first place) then it went on to discuss the 50% miss chance for "groping" (the word used under blind) - but the RAW has no rules for a miss chance unless there is an attack roll to be made. Please find me the RAW text that covers a non-attack miss chance.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Hyp and I are not disagreeing about the fact that the text under taget does not supercede the text for ranges, only what contitutes a range. Basically he is saying that touch is within the range of "ragned" spells (i.e., short and longer distances).

Hyp is not saying that at all. He's saying that 0ft is within Short range.

I don't understand how you can disagree with this statement or say that an opponent needs to be 5ft or further away to be targeted with a Short range spell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hyp and I are not disagreeing about the fact that the text under taget does not supercede the text for ranges, only what contitutes a range. Basically he is saying that touch is within the range of "ragned" spells (i.e., short and longer distances).

I'm saying "that someone you are touching is within Close range", but otherwise yes. That's right.

RANGE
A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.

Close: The spell reaches as far as 25 feet away from you. The maximum range increases by 5 feet for every two full caster levels.

Is there anything in there that suggests there is a minimum range within which a spell cannot function?

If I'm touching someone, they are within 25 feet, right? The 25 feet is the maximum range from me that the spell's effect can occur. It indicates how far from me it can reach.

What is there about Close range that prevents me from targeting someone who is close enough for me to touch?

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

All I'm saying is that there may be some sort of "plane" drawn when it comes to distances that separates physically touching and any "distances" of any sort.

I am not saying you need to be at least "5 ft away" but rather that when touching you have crosed the plane and are no longer into a "range" that is measured in feet (or inches or anything similar).

Logic, as we have discovered, doesn't always work when applied to the RAW.

The Question of the Day would appear to support this "mysterious plane" point of view. If anyone can find something else from WotC that supports either point of view, please post it.

 

[irdeggman]

Hyp is not saying that at all. He's saying that 0ft is within Short range.

I think that Hyp basically confirmed that I had "paraphrased" is POV.

But 0 ft range is not the same as touch.

0 ft range is the spot you are at, not reaching out and "touching" which is what "touch" is.

Under no interpretation is a 0 ft range spell the same as touch. A touch spell can be used on someone in an adjacent square or greater (basically someone in your "threat range").

 

[Infiniti2000]

All I'm saying is that there may be some sort of "plane" drawn when it comes to distances that separates physically touching and any "distances" of any sort.

No, there is no such "plane" drawn. There is no support for that and indication whatsover in the rules. There's no minimum distance for ranged spells and no restriction on who I'm touching, holding, kissing, or anything for me to Target someone with a Close range spell.

I am not saying you need to be at least "5 ft away" but rather that when touching you have crosed the plane and are no longer into a "range" that is measured in feet (or inches or anything similar).

What plane? I see no such term described anywhere in the rules.

But 0 ft range is not the same as touch.

Range: 0ft is not the same as Range: touch, agreed. However, I don't understand where you find justification for your interpretation that by touching you, I'm forced to use a Range: Touch spell and cannot use some other spell.

0 ft range is the spot you are at, not reaching out and "touching" which is what "touch" is.

Once again, we're not talking about Range: Touch spells. We're merely talking about maintaing some sort of contact with your Target.