D&D 5E Tasha's and Haste

[Blue]

Just a couple quick questions about the Haste action and how it interacts with Tasha's. Could be some interesting optimization fodder.

Haste grants an additional action that can be used for a short list of things, including the Attack action but you only get one attack.

* A Path of the Beast Barbarian with the Claws option has "when you attack with a claw as an Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action". Which is more specific - Haste or this? In other words, they mention in the beginning of the book that specific beats out general. Is this "more specific" so that single Haste attack could add a second claw attack?

* Can a Bladesinger 6 use their "You can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks" rider on their Extra Attack during that Haste Attack?

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Definitely the intention is for the spell to stack last, or in your words be the "most specific".

So, your Hasted Beast Barbarian could make an extra single claw attack from the haste, and your Bladesinger can make an attack with a cantrip, but only if they haven't used a cantrip already.

If it's easier, perhaps think of it this way: Haste gives you +1 attacks to your attack action, effectively making the Bladesinger's Extra Attack w/Haste: You can make 3 attacks. One of them can be a cantrip. And the Beast Barbarian with Extra Attack & Haste winds up able to make 4 claw attacks (but not 5).

That's how I read it, anyway. I'm sure people can (and will) argue about it.

 

[Blue]

Definitely the intention is for the spell to stack last, or in your words be the "most specific".

So, your Hasted Beast Barbarian could make an extra single claw attack from the haste, and your Bladesinger can make an attack with a cantrip, but only if they haven't used a cantrip already.

If it's easier, perhaps think of it this way: Haste gives you +1 attacks to your attack action, effectively making the Bladesinger's Extra Attack w/Haste: You can make 3 attacks. One of them can be a cantrip. And the Beast Barbarian with Extra Attack & Haste winds up able to make 4 claw attacks (but not 5).

That's how I read it, anyway. I'm sure people can (and will) argue about it.

Sorry, I don't agree with either of your interpretations of the rules. Haste explicitly does not do what you said it does. If you choose that option it gives a separate Attack action, though a limited oun.

For example, you can dodge or disengage or cast a spell with your normal action, and then take an attack with the Hasted Attack action. There is no "+1 attack with your attack action", that's not how it works at all. Heck, that Haste Attack action could even satisfy you using the bonus action off hand attack, since you have taken an Attack action.

Also, we have long experience with multiple attack actions in a round from action surge - that has no limitations on it. So it makes no sense that the bladesinger ability, which allows you to substitute a cantrip for one attack in an Attack action, would only be allowed to trigger once.

Now, I'm not sure if either of these work, but this rebuttal of them does not stand.

 

[jsaving]

Haste grants a weaker version of the attack action that explicitly limits you to one swing of your weapon. It does that specifically to override the additional attacks that would otherwise trigger as part of a normal attack action. Because your extra claw attack is predicated on receiving a normal attack action, I would rule against haste giving you an extra claw attack.

 

[BacchusNL]

Sorry, I don't agree with either of your interpretations of the rules. Haste explicitly does not do what you said it does. If you choose that option it gives a separate Attack action, though a limited oun.

For example, you can dodge or disengage or cast a spell with your normal action, and then take an attack with the Hasted Attack action. There is no "+1 attack with your attack action", that's not how it works at all. Heck, that Haste Attack action could even satisfy you using the bonus action off hand attack, since you have taken an Attack action.

Also, we have long experience with multiple attack actions in a round from action surge - that has no limitations on it. So it makes no sense that the bladesinger ability, which allows you to substitute a cantrip for one attack in an Attack action, would only be allowed to trigger once.

Now, I'm not sure if either of these work, but this rebuttal of them does not stand.

It helps if you link the full text, my dude.

Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

The spell creates a special extra action with special limitations. No character ability (unless it were to specifically reference overriding the limitations of special limited actions) should be able to expand that special limited action to do the things it specifically does not allow. They may not take the "Attack action" with it, only the "Attack (one weapon attack only) action" with it.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Now, I'm not sure if either of these work, but this rebuttal of them does not stand.

Whatever. Remind me not to answer your questions again, then. The thing I was trying to say about the additional attack was only meant as a "if it helps you to understand how it works" not my literal reading of the text. These others have explained it better than I did, maybe you'll listen to them, then?

 

[cbwjm]

This has been brought up before and I think that I'd allow the bladesinger to use the haste attack to cast a cantrip in addition to the cantrip cast as part of their regular attack action. It isn't exactly game breaking.

Someone else has pointed out though that the beast barbarian is only able to make the extra attack once.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Haste grants a weaker version of the attack action that explicitly limits you to one swing of your weapon. It does that specifically to override the additional attacks that would otherwise trigger as part of a normal attack action. Because your extra claw attack is predicated on receiving a normal attack action, I would rule against haste giving you an extra claw attack.

It isn’t predicated on a “normal attack action”, it’s predicated on making at least one attack as part of the attack action.

 

[Blue]

It helps if you link the full text, my dude.

Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.

Sure, you can't do it with two Attack actions. But my example you quoted suggested casting a spell or using Dodge with your normal action, so your once-a-turn has not been used up.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I see no reason to think that the extra claw attack is "more specific" than the standard "extra attack" ability, and Haste is definitely not meant to allow for Extra Attack to be used. And casting a cantrip is definitely not the same as making a weapon attack. So I will answer "no" to both questions.

 

[Argyle King]

Sure, you can't do it with two Attack actions. But my example you quoted suggested casting a spell or using Dodge with your normal action, so your once-a-turn has not been used up.

I wanted to say no, but your view does seem to follow the logic of how things are spelled out.

 

[shadowoflameth]

When you use the attack action, however many attacks you might get, claw lets you make one claw attack as part of that action. Then haste gives you another action which can be used to make one attack. It is still another attack action. I don't see a limit on the number of times a Path of the Beast Barbarian with more than one action could use the claw in the same turn, so that attack from Haste could also trigger one claw attack.

The Bladesinger with Haste gets an attack action from Haste. Even though that action specifies only one attack, he doesn't lose the Bladesinger ability to cast a cantrip in place of it. It's still the Attack action.

 

[billd91]

Just a couple quick questions about the Haste action and how it interacts with Tasha's. Could be some interesting optimization fodder.

Haste grants an additional action that can be used for a short list of things, including the Attack action but you only get one attack.

* A Path of the Beast Barbarian with the Claws option has "when you attack with a claw as an Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action". Which is more specific - Haste or this? In other words, they mention in the beginning of the book that specific beats out general. Is this "more specific" so that single Haste attack could add a second claw attack?

* Can a Bladesinger 6 use their "You can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks" rider on their Extra Attack during that Haste Attack?

I'd go with haste being more specific, but even that doesn't mean that it overrides other restrictions. Haste allows 1 additional weapon attack, effectively, and you should be able to use any eligible weapon attack for it. But what counts as eligible?

Given the spell casting rules in general, I'd say that a bladesinger couldn't use it for a cantrip if he had already done so as part of his regular attack action. His ability to swap in a cantrip for an attack is limited to doing it once, dovetailing with the normal casting limits. There's no reason to believe that haste would allow a bladesinger to break that rule simply because the haste gives him 1 more weapon attack. If he hasn't used a cantrip yet that round (or cast any other non-bonus action spells) then I'd say his ability to swap an attack for a cantrip would work.

And, honestly, I'd go with the same from the beast barbarian with the claw option. Haste may give the benefit of an additional attack action, but it's a specifically truncated attack action in which the character gets 1 weapon attack and not the multiple attack actions that the character might normally get.

 

[Adb0782]

I think you can make only one attack as the general rules say you can make an additional attack when you use the attack action, but haste specify that for that action is granted ONLY one weapon attack. Im not agree also about Bladesinger can use Booming Blade on that attack, as BB is yes a weapon attack, but its not ONLY one weapon attack.

 

[NotAYakk]

Haste gives you an attack action. It is a real attack action where you can do whatever you want.

Except in no case whatsoever can you make more than 1 attack in it.

If you are making a 2nd attack in that hasted action, then the 2nd attack never happens.

You can use your "Extra attack" feature, or any other feature, but any attack beyond the first in the action simply doesn't happen.

...

Alternative reading is that you can take the attack action, but the only thing that attack action can contain is a single weapon attack. Nothing else. No nose picking, no free actions, nothing. This is slightly more strict than my reading above.

Given the spell casting rules in general, I'd say that a bladesinger couldn't use it for a cantrip if he had already done so as part of his regular attack action.

There is no limit to how many or what kind of spells you can cast with actions.

The rule is very narrow. If you use a bonus action to cast a spell, you cannot have cast any other spells this turn except a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

This is a rule for casting a spell with a bonus action. You can action surge and cast 2 spells, you can cast an action spell and a reaction spell

You cannot cast a bonus action spell and a reaction spell. You cannot cast a bonus action cantrip and a non-bonus action spell.

Arguably, you cannot cast a bonus action spell and cast a cantrip as part of an attack action, because that cantrip no longer has a casting time of 1 action.

You can action surge, attack + cantrip, attack+cantrip. And, arguably, you can hasted action attack plus a cantrip that does not involve an attack.

 

[fearsomepirate]

The cantrip is something you can optionally do in place of a second weapon attack. Your Haste Attack does not get a second attack, therefore, you cannot replace it with a cantrip. It does not exist.

The phrase, "(one weapon attack only)" does not mean "(one weapon attack only and also something else)."

 

[NotAYakk]

The cantrip is something you can optionally do in place of a second weapon attack. Your Haste Attack does not get a second attack, therefore, you cannot replace it with a cantrip. It does not exist.

The phrase, "(one weapon attack only)" does not mean "(one weapon attack only and also something else)."

Yes, you can't pick your nose, smite, use inspiration to reroll your attack, use bardic inspiration as a swords bard, etc; those are all things that are not "one weapon attack", and haste attack action can only consist of an attack and nothing else.

You can only attack.

That is a position.

An alternative is that you do the attack action, and if you attempt a 2nd attack, it doesn't occur.

This is the difference between only (one weapon attack) and (only one) weapon attack, both of which are reasonable readings of
'That action can be used [...] to take the Attack (one weapon Attack only) [...]'.

There is also the "it really means you can add one attack to your usually attack routine, ignore what it actually says" position, which is a reasonable position (if not a reasonable reading).

 

[Blue]

The cantrip is something you can optionally do in place of a second weapon attack. Your Haste Attack does not get a second attack, therefore, you cannot replace it with a cantrip. It does not exist.

The cantrip can replace any of the attacks, including the first. It does not need to be the second attack - that wouldn't work because the Haste Attack action will only give a single one. But since it can replace the first, then does it work?

There is also the "it really means you can add one attack to your usually attack routine, ignore what it actually says" position, which is a reasonable position (if not a reasonable reading).

No, Haste explicitly does not "just add an attack". Because you can do something that is not an Attack action with your main and still take the Attack action with your Haste. You could cast a spell with your main action, Attack and attack once using your Haste Attack action. See, not just adding an attack. Heck, if that one attack was with a light weapon, since you have taken the Attack action you could use your bonus action for Two Weapon Fighting to attack with a light weapon in your other hand. It's an actual, real Attack action, just one with a limitation on the number of attacks.

 

[fearsomepirate]

Expending a resource like inspiration or a smite is part of the weapon attack. It's not an additional attack. Trying to find a loophole in (one weapon attack only) that still gets you your Extra Attack seems extremely implausible. How else would they have worded it? Mearls et al. aren't prone to using legalese, so I don't think they would have said, "(one weapon attack only; no features, effects, feats, etc that grant additional attacks apply, inclusive of any rule that allows substitution of various things in place of a weapon attack, i.e., such substitutions are for the purposes of this rule considered to be weapon attacks when considering the scope of activity involved in this Action. Terms and conditions apply. Contact your nearest WotC representative for details. Not valid in the states of VT, CA, IN, or TX.)"