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5E Tasha's Hideous Laughter vs Otto's Irresistible Dance

TaranTheWanderer

Adventurer
Apparently, Otto isn't as efficient a spellcaster as Tasha?

Hideous Laughter: Level 2
1 minute concentration - save every round
Target is Prone (advantage when dealing melee, disadvantage to attack). Cannot stand
Target is incapacitated (can't take actions or reaction)
Presumably, can crawl.


Irresistible Dance: Level 6?!!
1 minute concentration - save every round, if it uses an action.
Target uses up all movement dancing - Movement =0
Disadvantage to attacks and saving throws, attack on target have advantage

I mean...they are practically the same spell with different flavour. Except one is 4 levels higher than the other.

Have I missed something. Irresistible Dance seems a pretty useless choice for a 6th level spell. It should be like...3rd...but I'd still choose Slow over this spell even at that level.
 

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Irresistible dance has no saving throw to resit the initial effect, and you only get a save in subsequent rounds if you use your Action to do so.

In other words (as long as the creature is not immune to being Charmed) it takes the creature out of combat for an entire round at least, with no save (presuming it uses its action on its turn to resist the effect, and passes the saving throw).

Guaranteeing an entire rounds worth of it getting smashed by your party, likely with advantage on the attack rolls.
 



rgoodbb

Adventurer
I think Tasha's is actually 1st level.

They do seem similar in flavour but as above, it's 1st round lost and bypasses Legendries.

Still, level 6 is steep and Tasha's is still an excellent spell
 


jgsugden

Legend
Let's run this through.

There are a decent number of undead, constructs, beasts and monstrosities that are immune to Tasha's due to their intelligence. Assuming the target is not one of them, an 11th level wizard with a DC17 for their spells is going to find at least 20% of their targets ignore Tasha's and shrug it off with no impact. If those creatures have a positive Wisdom save, that percentage grows.

Let's say that there are two enemies, one has had Tasha's cast on it (and faile the save) and the other has had Otto's cast on it.

If the Tasha's foe is attacked, there is another save with advantage. Also the creature gets to save at the end of each of its turns. While the creature can only talk and crawl, essentially, until the save is made, this is a delaying tactic. Note that a savy monster may be able to crawl off of something or into something to take damage to get a save with advantage.

A well organized party can likely gang tackle the foe if they fail the save throughout the duration of the combat and are the last foe standing, but that may require a lot of failed saves - and probability tells us they'll likely make that save before the end of a 4 or 5 round combat. All in all, you have to be coordinated and avoid damaging the foe. The target is prone, so adjacent enemies (the PCs) get advantage and ranged enemies get disadvantage on attacks on it.

The Otto's target gets no initial save. That means that 100% of targets, despite legendary resistances or other defenses, will be impacted. Further, they'll lose at least 1 action to try to make a save. They can still attack (although at disadvantage) or take other actions, but they can't move, until they save. They have disadvantage on dexterity saves, and attacks on them have advantage. This encourages allies to tear into it right away to make use of that disadvantage on dexterity saves, or advantage on attack rolls. The monster will not be able to move, at all, until it makes a save, and will have to use an action to make a save. It can still use bonus actions and reactions, so it is not entirely trapped until it makes the save.

If you think through the situations, they have very different use cases.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
There are a billion save-or-suck spells.

Dance is ... suck. Just suck. Then you can burn an action (which makes you suck more) to save-to-recover.

The big problem with Dance is that it is a 30' range spell. And often you'll want to delay the cast to right after the creature's turn, so you get a full round of beatdown before it then loses an action.
 

I'm not sure why Otto's doesn't just Incapacitate you and give you a save at the end of each round. Then it would be easier to directly compare what it's giving you. They must have thought that would be too good of an upgrade.
 

TaranTheWanderer

Adventurer
Let's run this through.

There are a decent number of undead, constructs, beasts and monstrosities that are immune to Tasha's due to their intelligence. Assuming the target is not one of them, an 11th level wizard with a DC17 for their spells is going to find at least 20% of their targets ignore Tasha's and shrug it off with no impact. If those creatures have a positive Wisdom save, that percentage grows.

Let's say that there are two enemies, one has had Tasha's cast on it (and faile the save) and the other has had Otto's cast on it.

If the Tasha's foe is attacked, there is another save with advantage. Also the creature gets to save at the end of each of its turns. While the creature can only talk and crawl, essentially, until the save is made, this is a delaying tactic. Note that a savy monster may be able to crawl off of something or into something to take damage to get a save with advantage.

A well organized party can likely gang tackle the foe if they fail the save throughout the duration of the combat and are the last foe standing, but that may require a lot of failed saves - and probability tells us they'll likely make that save before the end of a 4 or 5 round combat. All in all, you have to be coordinated and avoid damaging the foe. The target is prone, so adjacent enemies (the PCs) get advantage and ranged enemies get disadvantage on attacks on it.

The Otto's target gets no initial save. That means that 100% of targets, despite legendary resistances or other defenses, will be impacted. Further, they'll lose at least 1 action to try to make a save. They can still attack (although at disadvantage) or take other actions, but they can't move, until they save. They have disadvantage on dexterity saves, and attacks on them have advantage. This encourages allies to tear into it right away to make use of that disadvantage on dexterity saves, or advantage on attack rolls. The monster will not be able to move, at all, until it makes a save, and will have to use an action to make a save. It can still use bonus actions and reactions, so it is not entirely trapped until it makes the save.

If you think through the situations, they have very different use cases.
Ok, so I'd missed some subtle differences in the spells. The advantage on saves With Tasha's I'd missed, which makes it much less useful.

I'd also missed The fact that there is no initial saving throw on Otto's Irresistible Dance.

Thanks for the clarification.
 

Dausuul

Legend
I'm not sure why Otto's doesn't just Incapacitate you and give you a save at the end of each round. Then it would be easier to directly compare what it's giving you. They must have thought that would be too good of an upgrade.
Yeah, that's a bit too good. There are many cases where the target might prefer to accept the debuff and fight through it instead of sacrificing an action (for a save that it might still fail). A spellcaster, for example, suffers no loss of offensive power and likely has minions to hold the enemy at bay.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
Also, legendary creatures can do legendary actions; if they aren't attacks, there is no penalty on it.

With incapacitated they cannot.

A creature could have dispel magic, and just drop the effect without doing a save. A BBEG could have a mook with dispel magic, and ready an action for after it goes off.

It is already really strong, in that it can give your entire party a turn of advantage attacks and kill a boss monster's action. The fact that it is strictly weaker than incapacitate is good. And as a 6th level spell, you are probably only going to see it well after system mastery has arrived, and then only 1/day until like T4.
 

The action to make the save isn't optional, that's your prescribed action each round. Not being Incapacitated means you can still take reactions, bonus actions, and Legendary Actions. And that's about the only difference. For many creatures that only means they can still take opportunity attacks, while others might have a variety of options for fight or flight available.
 



Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Ok, so I'd missed some subtle differences in the spells. The advantage on saves With Tasha's I'd missed, which makes it much less useful.

I'd also missed The fact that there is no initial saving throw on Otto's Irresistible Dance.

Thanks for the clarification.
Tasha's doesn't just give advantage on saves, it gives EXTRA immediate saves with advantage that can break it immediately, before their next turn. So if you're trying to beatdown with advantage (which for Tasha's in only adjacent PCs), Tasha's will break pretty fast.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Yeah, Tasha's is a fragile spell. It's good for disabling monsters when you're low level, but later on it's pretty much only good for using up your enemy's Legendary Resistances and counterspells. More powerful enemies aren't going to be bothered much by it.

But Otto's? Dang. Otto's doesn't have a save until the target's next turn, and only if it uses its action to save. It's guaranteed to work at least one round, and guaranteed to be a debuff for at least two rounds. (And by the time you're able to cast 6th level spells, that save DC is probably pretty high.) I think 6th level is appropriate for Otto's Irresistable Dance...any lower, and it would be too easy to counter or dispel.

Honestly, both spells are good to have in your catalog.
 



TheSword

Legend
Supporter
Does any one remember some fluff text from 3e where a Manshoon clone had his prisoner tied, criss-crossed in steel wire... then cast this spell.

I remember thinking that was so evil... and cool... and innovative as most compulsions can’t make you willingly injure yourself!
 

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