Teach Me Your Old-School Ways

[grodog]

So movement is measured in inches, which maps to a 1" = 10' scale? I'm asking because I actually got my hands on a copy of the 1979 DMG (in fairly terrible condition, but none of the pages are missing/unreadable so I'm happy with it) and it says in a couple of places "Movement is discussed elsewhere" but it doesn't say where!

Probably the PHB or intro to the MM, or OD&D or Chainmail

You're not rolling WM every turn, though, right? It's generally every 3 turns?

For me, that varies by where the PCs are and what they're doing. You always roll WM after noisy stuff like combat, bashing down doors and portcullises, dropping huge lengths of chain down wells, etc. I also roll more frequently for WM in more-frequently travelled areas (and less in very out of the way locations, too), so yes sometimes as often as once a turn, but in general it's once every three turns.

July? Did they push them back?

Yes, they're delayed now.

Anyway as mentioned, I did find an old copy of the DMG, and I've downloaded the OSRIC pdf, though I may buy the hardback if I can find the money, mostly because I hate reading from the computer screen but a little bit because it's worth it to support a company called Black Blade Publishing.

Great, and thanks. If you do decide to buy our hardcover, please email us via the web site: the shopping cart is, alas, broken (and unfixable since the vendor's gone now), and calculates shipping fees that are too high.

Thanks again for all the help.

Happy to

 

[KesselZero]

You always roll WM after noisy stuff like combat, bashing down doors and portcullises, dropping huge lengths of chain down wells, etc. I also roll more frequently for WM in more-frequently travelled areas (and less in very out of the way locations, too), so yes sometimes as often as once a turn, but in general it's once every three turns.

Awesome, that makes a lot of sense!

So here's a question that has been addressed a little, but not a lot. Since tracking time and movement very specifically is such an important part of the playstyle, how do people do it? One poster mentioned using a pencil point on the DM's map for party location and just making hash marks for each 10-minute turn that passes, but what else do people do? I just could see this becoming a chore, being forgotten, being neglected, etc. but it seems like a very important job of the DM.

 

[The Red King]

Here's a specific question for you wonderful people to chew over. What does the workday of an old-school dungeoncrawl look like? If you're exploring for the sake of exploring, which is what gets my motor running about this old-school thing, then there isn't a clear goal you're working towards. So how do you know when it's time to call it a day and make camp or head back to town?

Along those lines, how do you manage time in the actual game session? The West Marches hexcrawl/sandbox notes explicitly say that players are expected to return to town after each venture into the wild, and any who don't make it back are stuck out there until the next time they can get together and make their way home. How do you think this is managed? Halfway through the night does the DM just say "We're at the halfway mark, time to start thinking about heading home?" Or is there an expectation that the party can just say "We've had enough, we head back the way we came" and barring anything weird like disappearing doors or one-way passages or wandering monsters they just make their way safely back to town? What if they don't? I tend to have a core group of 4 or 5 players with a varying fringe of whom 1 or 2 will show up at any given session. I can't very well let the core get stuck on level 6 and make the one fringe player fight his way down there, but handwaving and saying "You find your comrades in the dungeon" really ruins the purity of the exercise for me.

Thanks for all the great links and advice so far! Oh, regarding the "roll lots of dice" comment-- do you mean that in a hexcrawl, it's essentially random whether a party finds the hex's main feature when they pass through it? That makes sense to me, as long as it has the corollary that once they've found something they can always find it again (unless it's a wandering wizard's tower or something).

We never ever complete an adventure in one session. I have my group right now burried about 3 miles deep in caverns and underground rivers. I'll let them up eventually.

But I play free form. They determine what they want to do, I throw out a few hooks once in a while, but they don't have to take them.

Either way, there are plenty of characters, fights and treasure regardless of what they want to do, so it all works out.

 

[KesselZero]

We never ever complete an adventure in one session. I have my group right now burried about 3 miles deep in caverns and underground rivers. I'll let them up eventually.

Do you have one consistent group that you always play with, or does your table change from game to game? I certainly think your way would work if you had the same players each time. How do you handle new players, people who can't make a session, etc.?

 

[Libramarian]

Good questions here KesselZero

I find it really useful to take notes during a session. The cool thing about exploratory, sandboxy gameplay is that the players make more choices with consequences. That's the heart of it really. So the more carefully you keep track of what the players do and the choices they have made, the more you can develop consequences reflecting their choices. It's sort of the inverse of typical railroady preparation: the players do stuff and you take notes, rather than you taking notes beforehand about what you want the players to do.

It also lets you make stuff up during the session with more confidence and weight, if you write it down after. I write down almost anything I make up on the spot. Particularly names, traits and relationships among NPCs. Definitely write down anything interesting the players do if there's a chance NPCs might hear about it later.

So here's a question that has been addressed a little, but not a lot. Since tracking time and movement very specifically is such an important part of the playstyle, how do people do it? One poster mentioned using a pencil point on the DM's map for party location and just making hash marks for each 10-minute turn that passes, but what else do people do? I just could see this becoming a chore, being forgotten, being neglected, etc. but it seems like a very important job of the DM.

I use graph paper and tick off squares. At the top part of the sheet, 1 line = 1 month and 1 square = 1 day. Mid part of the sheet, 1 line = 1 adventure and 1 square = 1 turn. Bottom part of the sheet, 1 line = 1 battle and 1 square = 1 round. Generally, resting and outdoor travel happens on the day scale, dungeoncrawling happens on the turn scale, and combat happens on the round scale (walking around town happens on the hour scale, but I usually just handwave that). I put notes ahead on the "time line" for upcoming events, like if the players have 10 days to complete a mission, or a torch runs out in 6 turns. It's not too hard really, I find I have quite a bit of "free time" during dungeoncrawling (my players talk amongst themselves a LOT). The players enter a room, I say what they see, they take forever to decide what to do, giving me plenty of time to track time and roll for WM and read a bit ahead in my notes or the adventure module.

Wandering monsters are really important. Make sure the players know what they are and how and when you roll for them. Make them question whether it's actually better to move around at a slower rate in heavy armor. Consider only enforcing the mandatory 1 turn rest per hour rule if the PCs are wearing chainmail and up.

One really nitty-gritty tip is that i find with the square size of the old TSR module maps, 3 squares is about as wide as one of my fingers, so I guesstimate lengths with my fingers--1 for 30', 2 for 60' 3 90' 4 120' (these are the 4 possible movement rates for PCs)

Regarding player mapping, I would actually advise NOT using graph paper, just to emphasize that the map doesn't have to be exactly to scale, just enough that they can use it to find their way around. As with anything else, it's supposed to be an enjoyable challenge, not a chore -- make a map, and you get to move around at 5x speed, along with whatever other strategic benefits the party might get out of a visual representation of the dungeon area. If the players don't want this (which they reasonably wouldn't if it's a small and/or linear dungeon) allow them to choose to not make a map. For additional incentive you might have NPCs willing to buy dungeon maps. Oh and I generally give the players free maps for outdoor areas, towns and normal buildings. It's just the dark, mazy dungeons where you need to hide the map from the players.

On rolling lots of dice. Whenever you sense that you don't have the necessary objectivity to make a judgement by fiat, then choose a probability and roll (e.g. have these kobolds prepared an ambush? that's a little intense to decide in the middle of a session, so 2/6 chance). And when you're choosing a probability, think out loud if possible--say the factors you are considering, don't be a black box. Think out loud in general, tell the players what rules you are engaging (at least the first time). Give give give information, information allows them to make interesting decisions.

Also -- the Morale/Loyalty/Encounter Reaction rules in AD&D are very fun and I much prefer them to the social skill rules in new editions.

For a compiled and simplified version see this:
The Most Important Rules in My Game | Mob | United | Malcolm | Sheppard

(Although he doesn't mention it, I recall seeing something very similar in an old Dragon mag.)

 

[Libramarian]

Great, and thanks. If you do decide to buy our hardcover, please email us via the web site: the shopping cart is, alas, broken (and unfixable since the vendor's gone now), and calculates shipping fees that are too high.

Oh man, really?! Not long ago I decided not to buy your OSRIC hardcover because of the shipping fees. You should put a note on the site about that.

 

[Water Bob]

*What sort of balance is sought? A lot of the Caves of Chaos seems to hinge on whether fights draw the attention of nearby monsters or not. In somewhere like the kobold area (I believe it's entrance A) how does this not just lead to dogpiling on the PCs?

If it happens, it happens.

Back when I was a sophomore in high school, I was introduced to this new game (new to me) called D&D. It was just me and the DM. I went over to his house on a Saturday. Out in the back yard, he had all these books and graph paper set up on a picnic table.

The adventure? Keep on the Borderlands/Caves of Chaos. One player and one DM.

That day started a love affair with what has become my favorite hobby, and it has been with me the rest of my life.

The first thing we did was roll up a character. I created a fighter. Then, he let me roll for beginning wealth for this 1st level character. I rolled a few coins then spent most of it equipping the dude.

Then, we just started playing.





I had cut my teeth as a fighter in the Duke's legions. My service over, I was a free man, and I had just reached the gates of Threshold.

With no more background than that, my DM just looked at me and said, "It's getting late. The sun is disappearing behind the horizon. The city's gates are closed at dusk. If you don't get in, you'll have to make due outside the city until morning. You're standing in front of the huge, wooden gates. What do you want to do?"

And, that's how it all started.

I approached the gate, and this led to my first roleplaying encounter with me trying to convince the guard that he should allow an armed mercenary type into the city right at dusk.

That was fun. I was hooked.

The GM just played off of what I did. "You cross into the city. It is noticably dark now. You see young boy, about 13 or 14 years old, with a donkey and wagon. He seems to be lighting some oil lights in the city. The city is shutting down for the evening. What do you want to do?"

I walked over to the boy and asked him where I could stay, get a bite to eat, and freshen up. He directed me to the inn.

Once I was there, talking with the barkeep and patrons, I learned about the caves. I couldn't go alone, though. So, after paying for a room for the night, I went to the market and paid a scribe to create notices. That took a day, so I spent the rest of it exploring the town and having improptu roleplay encounters with the GM.

I was running out of coin, so I needed to find some work or wealth soon. The next morning, I told the barkeep my intent to explore the caves, and he allowed me to tack up a notice. I put the other notices (I could only afford four of them) in the market, at the horse stalls, and at the temple.

This led to more roleplaying encounters. I sat in the inn as, one by one, these NPCs would come to see me, trying to get hired onto my team. Word spread quickly in that little keep.

I met with two or three thieves, then selected one. Befriended a Ranger. Hired a mage. Convinced a cleric to join me. And, before I knew it, I was leading a party (one PC and four hireling NPCs) into the Caves for fame and fortune.

Man, those were the days. I love every minute of it.

You speak of a bottleneck. This is exactly what happened when I played this adventure back in 1982. The goblins and the Hobgoblins hated each other, and when I went in there, they were at war, killing each other.

This was cool because it cut down the number of baddies my and my party had to face.

OTOH, every encounter we had was with fully armed and ready enemies, leery of the gobby/hobby war.

Man, those were fun times.



Hopefully my description will help you run a game in the old school style. Old school adventures, like the Caves of Chaos, basically just give you a skeleton. It's up to you to put flesh on it. The module provides the outline. You deck it out with full prose.

Literally, the module can be different each time you play it.

 

[KesselZero]

I use graph paper and tick off squares. At the top part of the sheet, 1 line = 1 month and 1 square = 1 day. Mid part of the sheet, 1 line = 1 adventure and 1 square = 1 turn. Bottom part of the sheet, 1 line = 1 battle and 1 square = 1 round. Generally, resting and outdoor travel happens on the day scale, dungeoncrawling happens on the turn scale, and combat happens on the round scale (walking around town happens on the hour scale, but I usually just handwave that). I put notes ahead on the "time line" for upcoming events, like if the players have 10 days to complete a mission, or a torch runs out in 6 turns.

I love this!

Wandering monsters are really important. Make sure the players know what they are and how and when you roll for them. Make them question whether it's actually better to move around at a slower rate in heavy armor. Consider only enforcing the mandatory 1 turn rest per hour rule if the PCs are wearing chainmail and up.

I'm curious about this, the "make sure players know" part. I do see that you need to give the players information to make informed decisions, but aren't you showing your hand a bit here? Also, won't players sort of work this stuff out for themselves as they play? Like, I don't need to tell them I roll for WM after Turn 1 of every fight because it causes noise-- they should pick up on that fact when monsters keep being drawn to their melees. Or am I misinterpreting what you mean?

One really nitty-gritty tip is that i find with the square size of the old TSR module maps, 3 squares is about as wide as one of my fingers, so I guesstimate lengths with my fingers--1 for 30', 2 for 60' 3 90' 4 120' (these are the 4 possible movement rates for PCs)

Is the party's move rate just based on the slowest PC?

Regarding player mapping, I would actually advise NOT using graph paper, just to emphasize that the map doesn't have to be exactly to scale, just enough that they can use it to find their way around. As with anything else, it's supposed to be an enjoyable challenge, not a chore -- make a map, and you get to move around at 5x speed, along with whatever other strategic benefits the party might get out of a visual representation of the dungeon area. If the players don't want this (which they reasonably wouldn't if it's a small and/or linear dungeon) allow them to choose to not make a map. For additional incentive you might have NPCs willing to buy dungeon maps.

I also love this!

Also -- the Morale/Loyalty/Encounter Reaction rules in AD&D are very fun and I much prefer them to the social skill rules in new editions.

For a compiled and simplified version see this:
The Most Important Rules in My Game | Mob | United | Malcolm | Sheppard

Very cool stuff! You don't find that making all these rolls, tracking modifiers, etc. gets cumbersome? Does it slow down combat to be making Morale checks throughout? It also seems like if you do a new roll at every break point you could end up with very swingy results where an NPC's mood changes wildly throughout the conversation. Or do the modifiers tend to even that out?

Thanks!

 

[KesselZero]

Old school adventures, like the Caves of Chaos, basically just give you a skeleton. It's up to you to put flesh on it. The module provides the outline. You deck it out with full prose.

Literally, the module can be different each time you play it.

This is actually quite helpful. I should have seen this, but I didn't-- I'm too stuck in the new-school adventure style where everything is carefully plotted out and has tons of background. The Caves of Chaos aren't like that, but when I saw a list of rooms and monsters I just sort of thought, well, I guess old-school adventures are just rooms full of monsters? But no, they're a framework to hang my own stories on. This distinction between older and newer published modules is actually very interesting to me and probably bears further thought and discussion as to what it all means. But for now I'll just have to think about the fact that Keep on the Borderlands give me people and places but not stories. I have to decide how the pieces all fit together.

 

[grodog]

Oh man, really?! Not long ago I decided not to buy your OSRIC hardcover because of the shipping fees. You should put a note on the site about that.

I'll look into that, thanks!