Telekinesis:fling skyward?

[Egres]

Hi.

I'm having a rule debate regarding the Telekinesis spell, and I would appreciate the EnWorld community feedback.

This is the question: can I use the Telekinesis Violent Thrust maneuver to obtain the Fling Skyward effect of the Mage of the Unseen Hand...without the Prc?

In other words, does the spell allow this usage even without taking the 5th level of the PrC?

IMHO the answer is clearly No, and for these reasons:

1) The PrC would be useless.

2) The reading of the Violent Thrust isn't that of a creature being flung somewhere, but things being flung at a creature. Now, the "things" can be a creature, and the "creature" can be any target, but the emphasis is still flinging something at something else.

3) Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level)

Ok:we need a second target.

What's a target anyway?

Let's read:

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

Is a point in mid-air a valid target?

By the RAW no.

Is it a creature?

No.

Is it an object?

No.

No target, no mid air.

Another point worth to be noticed:

Silence

Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text or no (object)

As you can see a point in space is clearly defined as something different from a creature or an object, and in order to target a point in space you'll need a spell that specifically defines that you can do it.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

[Gez]

I guess you answered yourself your own question, and I agree with your answer.

Now, if you first conjures some flying creature as far above your victim as possible (like a celestial bee or whatever), tell it to hover there, then use violent thrust to fling your victim toward the celestial bee, you'd get the same effect. Except it would take you two rounds and two spells instead of one of each.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Personally I think that

1) the PrC is useless

2) the violent thrust can be used to hurl something up in the air. No point in getting tied down into the minutaie of the language used in the spell. I don't believe the spell has a built in logic which says "violently move x between location x and location y where location y is a target".

Can you violently thrust something towards an illusion? What if you think you see something but it isn't really there, can you violently thrust towards it? I'd say yes, of course.

I think the line about "toward any target" is an enabling rather than a restrictive clause. If it wasn't there, some people wouldn't allow an object to be thrown at a target. Your interpretation wouldn't let violent thrust knock someone off a cliff - completely missing the spirit of the spell IMO.

Cheers

 

[moritheil]

Plane Sailing is largely right. If concerned about the integrity of the PrC, you could just allow skyward throws to be half as effective, due to having to go against gravity, unless this PrC was taken.

Personally I think that

1) the PrC is useless

2) the violent thrust can be used to hurl something up in the air. No point in getting tied down into the minutaie of the language used in the spell. I don't believe the spell has a built in logic which says "violently move x between location x and location y where location y is a target".

Can you violently thrust something towards an illusion? What if you think you see something but it isn't really there, can you violently thrust towards it? I'd say yes, of course.

I think the line about "toward any target" is an enabling rather than a restrictive clause. If it wasn't there, some people wouldn't allow an object to be thrown at a target. Your interpretation wouldn't let violent thrust knock someone off a cliff - completely missing the spirit of the spell IMO.

Cheers

 

[Bad Paper]

This is the question: can I use the Telekinesis Violent Thrust maneuver to obtain the Fling Skyward effect of the Mage of the Unseen Hand...without the Prc?

Never heard of this PrC. Where does it appear?

 

[Egres]

Personally I think that

1) the PrC is useless

2) the violent thrust can be used to hurl something up in the air. No point in getting tied down into the minutaie of the language used in the spell. I don't believe the spell has a built in logic which says "violently move x between location x and location y where location y is a target".

Can you violently thrust something towards an illusion? What if you think you see something but it isn't really there, can you violently thrust towards it? I'd say yes, of course.

I think the line about "toward any target" is an enabling rather than a restrictive clause. If it wasn't there, some people wouldn't allow an object to be thrown at a target. Your interpretation wouldn't let violent thrust knock someone off a cliff - completely missing the spirit of the spell IMO.

Cheers

The illusionary target is an exception, as shown by the fact that you can target them with a Magic Missile too, even if they aren't really creatures.

Where are the big bad guys?

Hyp, Caliban, Patryn and such?(no offense for the posters that have replied so far, of course)

 

[moritheil]

None taken, although if you're going to ignore posts that aren't by the big guns, it would have been nice of you to note that in your original request for answers.

The illusionary target is an exception, as shown by the fact that you can target them with a Magic Missile too, even if they aren't really creatures.

Where are the big bad guys?

Hyp, Caliban, Patryn and such?(no offense for the posters that have replied so far, of course)

 

[Egres]

None taken, although if you're going to ignore posts that aren't by the big guns, it would have been nice of you to note that in your original request for answers.

No, no, don't misinterpret my post.

I was simply surprised that this thread is missing their contribution.

I'm here for the EnWorld community feedback, and they are part of this community.

Add that they have an impressive number of posts and that they are well known rules lawyers and you'll understand why I was so surprised.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The illusionary target is an exception, as shown by the fact that you can target them with a Magic Missile too, even if they aren't really creatures.

Well, you can *try* to target them.

Where are the big bad guys?

Hyp, Caliban, Patryn and such?(no offense for the posters that have replied so far, of course)

Heh heh! A mention! And in the same breath as Hyp no less!

Here's how I would do it:

3) Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level)

What's a target?

As you mentioned, when targeting most spells, it is:

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

However, also within the spell description:

Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell. If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).

So, if I can use telekinesis to throw an enemy at the wall 100 feet behind him, it would make sense if I could still throw him into that space even if the wall wasn't there - even if that's not what the rules say.

Note also, however, that the rules also speak of targetting a specific square on occasion.

 

[Saeviomagy]

My take? Two of the PrC's abilities are useless. Those abilities are telekinetic flight (already possible using the spell) and fling skyward (again, already possible using the spell). I personally do not believe in claiming that because some PrC (or feat, or whatever) mistakenly lists the ability to do something as a special ability of the class (or feat) that said ability becomes unusable to other characters. The alternative is to claim that the investigate feat means that characters without it cannot find clues, the research feat means characters without it cannot use a library, or that characters without the urban tracking feat cannot find someone in a city using gather information...

The PrC itself, however, is still really good for someone wanting to be a master of telekinesis - one simply has to stop before the 5th level of it.