Teleportation

[Tovec]

Why oh god why did you need 4 consecutive posts? EDIT: Five!

That depends on the game I have seen the rogue have to pick dozens in a day and then not have to pick any.

The question of "why does the wizard have a simple spell that is BETTER at doing the rogue-thing than rogues" should still be addressed, regardless of how often it comes up in a given day, simply because it can come up many times in a day or not at all.

Knock has an important job in the game it can be vital for a party that does not have a rogue. It can be a nice back up if the rogue can't get the lock open or in an emergency like get the door open now before the dragon catches us. Usually though most rogues I have seen have an item that lets them cast knock in those kind of cases.

I'm glad your parties routinely have items of knock for the rogues. Mine never do. The few times they do have items of knock (looking at chimes of opening) is when it is a cool or random treasure instead of "being a dick" as you seem to think. It DOES happen that these items exist. There are numerous ways for the wizard to HAVE or MAKE the item that very simply cuts into the core of what another class has to SPECIALIZE in, which also happens to do it worse than the wizard with a single (low level) spell.

This is a game and we are all responsible for other people having a good time. So a player who would be making scrolls of knock or wands and just stepping all over the rogue for no other reason that being a super dick who can't share the spotlight is the issue not the spell.

Again, its not a matter of super dick, its a matter of easily accomplished. If fighters (let's say) could heal BETTER than the party cleric then we would be calling foul. Why is it a dick move when someone with that ability (to heal better than the cleric) creates items in order to do just that. Why isn't it just prudent planning?

A lot of these issues are more player issues than rule issues and no matter how much you try to make ironclad rules that can't be abused someone will always find away to be a jerk. So rule number 1 don't play with jerks.

Right, but BETTER rules are harder to break. Better rules are less likely to be abused from the get go. If you have no interest in fixing broken rules then they will continue to be abused. It isn't a matter of being a jerk but if these situations are well known (which they are given we have the term for it: scry/teleport/fry) then they will continue to be abused unless that rule is fixed.

Also, "don't play with jerks" is good when you can get it but not all of us have that luxury. Sometimes it is a jerk DM and you are a player. Sometimes it is a jerk player when you are a DM. And sometimes it is a jerk player when you are another player. You can quit a game with a bad DM but then you have to find another game. You can kick that player if you are the DM, but hopefully you still have enough to continue playing. Or you can complain to the DM about the jerk player and sometimes nothing comes of it, which leads to you dealing with it or quitting.
BUT if the rule isn't so easily exploited in the first place then you don't need to quit, boot or suffer through. If it isn't an issue then there is nothing to discuss. Not trying to fix the issue doesn't make it go away. Just like not-engaging doesn't stop the jerk from being a jerk.

 

[Elf Witch]

That may have been why Teleport was put in the game. But 3.X style teleport literally ruins worldbuilding. Which is a good reason to take it back out. And no, knock doesn't allow parties without rogues to function. They can do that anyway.

If you want a party with no one who can pick the lock, kick the door off its hinges. Knock was put in because some wizard wanted to be cool or because someone read the spell in a fiction novel.



Apparently time is not a limited resource. Right. If you give a wizard enough time, he gets a dump truck of spells given to him almost for free. And seriously, how often do you see more than two doors in a day that need picking?

The wizard should just pick up a handaxe like anyone else other than the rogue if there is no danger. Break the chest open or the door down. After all, time isn't a problem and neither is danger. What picking locks does is speed and subtlety. Those are literally the two reasons to pick a lock rather than break the door. And knock is better at both.



Name three in both cases.



Why? Making teleportation circles costs money and can be used to follow them.



Translation: The problem with teleport is DMs who consider the book they have paid good money for shouldn't be a half-baked product that needs fixing. Oberoni fallacy.



You're keen on house rules. House rule it back in. Or mark it as strictly optional at the DM's discression in the rulebook. It's a DMing nightmare with smart tactical players, and a worldbuilding and logistical nightmare.



Congratulations! You don't have problems with it! I know you've learned to cope. But why do you want to inflict common problems on other DMs and force them to all discover workrounds to massively setting-altering spells.

If it does not fit your campaign here is an idea take it out. A lot of spells can ruin world building raise dead for one, speak to dead another, how about remove disease try and have a good plague with a bunch of pesky clerics around undoing all your hard work at spreading disease.

The answer is not to just strip every possible spell that could in some way possibly ruin a campaign out of the book. The answer is to have rules that give the DM the ability to tailor things for his game.

So you need to be as quiet as possible to get through the locked door so now the party has a choice make as much noise breaking a door down and if it is magically locked that is going to be difficult. I guess you could teleport past the door oh wait teleport has been taken out as well. Lets hope the cleric has the the ability to stone shape or has that been taken out because who needs a rogue to pick locks when the cleric can just detect traps and then stone shape doors.

I have played in games without rogues and not being able to get around locks other than making a lot of noise becomes very frustrating. The only time I have ever really seen knock used was either in a game with no rogue or as back up for the rogue who asks the wizard to cast it.

And if there is no danger than a rogue just takes 20 and the door opens as easily as if with knock and other then time no resources have been spent.

Ah yes the because I and some others have an issue it means that the rules are badly written and the people who don't have an issue with it well to bad the rules should be changed for us because we are the squeaky wheels. Well WOTC listened to all the squeakers last time and yet here we are facing another new edition that promises to fix everything that was wrong before and make a game that everyone will love.


Have I not said many times that teleport should be in the DMG with advice on how to use it or not use for the style of campaign the DM wants to run.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

[...]
I very much disagree. Once players see something in the PH banning that thing becomes difficult; impossible in some groups.

Lanefan

I totally understand that argument. The banning is still easier because I relate 'easier' to the fact that you have just to say 'no teleport in my game' you can give a reason or not probably a reason is better if you know your group argues a lot.
If you have a group that argues a lot than 'enforcing' or making them follow your decision is the 'hard' part.

Remember my idea for disclaimers for certain spells, that would help for sure when facing opposition to banning by your group.

The 'difficult' part for the other option is you have to create the spell yourself or together with your group.
And please don't assume that everyone is a hyper experienced DM that can pull out the spell within 2s from his mind while sleeping.

 

[Elf Witch]

Why oh god why did you need 4 consecutive posts? EDIT: Five!


The question of "why does the wizard have a simple spell that is BETTER at doing the rogue-thing than rogues" should still be addressed, regardless of how often it comes up in a given day, simply because it can come up many times in a day or not at all.

I'm glad your parties routinely have items of knock for the rogues. Mine never do. The few times they do have items of knock (looking at chimes of opening) is when it is a cool or random treasure instead of "being a dick" as you seem to think. It DOES happen that these items exist. There are numerous ways for the wizard to HAVE or MAKE the item that very simply cuts into the core of what another class has to SPECIALIZE in, which also happens to do it worse than the wizard with a single (low level) spell.

Again, its not a matter of super dick, its a matter of easily accomplished. If fighters (let's say) could heal BETTER than the party cleric then we would be calling foul. Why is it a dick move when someone with that ability (to heal better than the cleric) creates items in order to do just that. Why isn't it just prudent planning?

Right, but BETTER rules are harder to break. Better rules are less likely to be abused from the get go. If you have no interest in fixing broken rules then they will continue to be abused. It isn't a matter of being a jerk but if these situations are well known (which they are given we have the term for it: scry/teleport/fry) then they will continue to be abused unless that rule is fixed.

Also, "don't play with jerks" is good when you can get it but not all of us have that luxury. Sometimes it is a jerk DM and you are a player. Sometimes it is a jerk player when you are a DM. And sometimes it is a jerk player when you are another player. You can quit a game with a bad DM but then you have to find another game. You can kick that player if you are the DM, but hopefully you still have enough to continue playing. Or you can complain to the DM about the jerk player and sometimes nothing comes of it, which leads to you dealing with it or quitting.
BUT if the rule isn't so easily exploited in the first place then you don't need to quit, boot or suffer through. If it isn't an issue then there is nothing to discuss. Not trying to fix the issue doesn't make it go away. Just like not-engaging doesn't stop the jerk from being a jerk.

I am sorry you don't like how I choose to post which is to read and post as I go. If it bothers you so much there is a feature here called ignore I suggest you use it.

Not everyone is as computer savvy as others and I have never figured out how to break up a post into sections and quote under each section much less on multiple posts.


It has been addressed over and over and over the designers changed it in 4E yet here we are still addressing it.

Knock is another one of those spells that needs to be handled by the DM and his players. Like teleport there could be different version for those of you j who just hate the idea of it, make it a ritual or make it just give the person a plus to pick lock or don't have it in your game at all.

I like knock being in the game as it is in 3E. I would rather players just use some courtesy and only use it when there is no rogue in the party. As a back up. As A DM I want to be able to run an adventure where people actually lock doors without making it impossible for the party to function without a rogue.

Knock is one way to do that another is to let any character choose open lock as a skill.

I think that wands should be able to be used by anyone who has the trigger word and I would love to see the heal skill actually give back some hit points.

 

[Lwaxy]

How do you think 5e should handle teleportation?

Generally, it's been fine as is. So many ways for the GM to curb it if needed, so asides from information about how to possibly handle problems, nothing needs to change IMO.

 

[pemerton]

If they would rather use teleport to get around obstacles and avoid all the encounters but the big boss fight then it seems pretty obvious this the kind of game they want to play in.

For me, it's also about the game presenting a coherent model for play. For example, if the expectatin is that the GM is meant to be in charge of scene framing, and that his/her job is to make life hard for the PCs (thereby putting pressure on the players to which they must respond as part of playing the game) then the inclusion of a teleport spell can be counterproductive.

Plus it has other unhappy consequences of the sort that [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] has described.

In the end I don't care if it turns up somewhere in a module. But if the game is build around teleport as a core conceit, or a presupposition of play, it is less likely that the game will appeal to me.

One suggestion from [MENTION=95493]Tovec[/MENTION] is to focus on the "off target" chance. My concern with that is that - unless you are playing a heavily-mapped sandbox - this can come close to "teleport into boring session", as the GM has nothing particularly to offer as a challenge for a party that arrives 15 miles from their destination. I would actually prefer something like the following variant: the GM chooses a destination for the teleport (anywhere from ontarget to a random location); the player then makes a skill check (probably Arcana in 4e) and if successful gets to choose whether the PC teleports there or not; if the check is failed then the PC ends up in the GM's chosen place.

Linked portals/teleport circles, on the other hand - as [MENTION=55966]ferratus[/MENTION], [MENTION=95493]Tovec[/MENTION] and [MENTION=87792]Neonchameleon[/MENTION] have described them - seem fine to me. They still leave the GM in charge of scene framing (because s/he gets to decide where the NPC-created circles are).

the rogue at a certain level most certainly can cast fireball from a wand or if he has a necklace of fireballs just pull and toss them. A rogue with use magic device can do a lot of what the wizard does and using a wand does not provoke an AOO like the wizard casting a spell.

A rogue with one level of bard not only can use magic device but can heal as well as a cleric using a wand.

In AD&D this is not true.

In 3E I don't really understand this. Wouldn't I just be bettter off being a wizard (perhaps with a level of bard also) than a rogue? Then I wouldn't need to spend skill points on Use Magic Device, and I would have spells as well! Plus there is the more general weirdness that the way the rogue becomes a viable PC is by doing the non-roguey thing of pretending to be a wizard.

So you need to be as quiet as possible to get through the locked door so now the party has a choice make as much noise breaking a door down and if it is magically locked that is going to be difficult.

<snip>

I have played in games without rogues and not being able to get around locks other than making a lot of noise becomes very frustrating.

I've been in situations where a fireball would be handy and there is no wizard. That's part of the point of a class-based game - you work around the abilities you don't have!

It has been addressed over and over and over the designers changed it in 4E yet here we are still addressing it.

Huh? Who thinks that teleport (ie the portal rituals) or knock causes a problem in 4e?

So much of this just seems to be about fairness and making everyone exactly the same.

But that is only go to happen if everyone can heal, cast magic and do the sneaky things and then why bother having classes at all have one.

Huh? You're the one saying that wizards have to be the same as rogues (ie have an open lock ability). And that rogues should be the same as clerics (by using wands of cure spells).

My point has consistently been - if you don't have a rogue, then I guess you won't be picking any locks. Find another way around! Just like, if there's no wizard, you won't be doing any fireballing. Find another way to kill those orcs!

For the first 5 levels of play the PCs in my 4e game didn't have a leader (ie a dedicated healer). They worked around it - finding other methods of recovering or mitigating damage.

Bringing down a wizard powers is not going to make a fighter anymore fun to play if all they can still do is hit things with a sword and nothing else. So instead of making the fighter more fun to play you have just made the wizard unfun to play. Well they do say misery loves company.

Are you really saying that the wizard is not fun to play if it doesn't get access to abilities that overlap and overshadow the niches of other classes?

 

[Lanefan]

That is true. I didn't realize the 1e method described ONLY the caster themself (plus whatever they are carrying).

It's done to a weight limit - a 9th level caster can take 250 lbs (it's not specifically stated but my assumption is this limit does include the caster's own weight; thus an excessively fat caster might not get much use out of this spell until 11th or even 12th level!) - the limit goes up by 150 lbs at 11th level and each level thereafter.

AND to include a way to add in portals.

I'm not at all concerned about portals, tele-sites, gates, etc. for these purposes - just the spell. All the other things are fixed in place.

I don't know what 'two segments' is.

1e as written used a rather strange way of timing things. A round (1 minute) was subdivided into segments, only thing was there were two different types of segments - 10 per round for spellcasting (so 6 seconds each) and 6 per round (10 seconds each) for everything else. Thus, a spell with a 2 segment cast time would take about 12 seconds to cast, very fast for a 5th level spell.

From a quick read through this seems similar to 3e's version. What is the major aspect that is different for you? Is it the "caster only" clause? I don't remember the '' above the ground caveat either so maybe that is it.

The biggest difference, other than what can be taken along for the ride, is the risk of deadly failure. (the risk of potentially painful failure by appearing too high is another difference, but that's easy to get around)

Key for you. I find there are a number of other things that could avoid abuse. At best I think we'll have to agree that there are a number of ways to handle this, based solely on personal taste. I personally dislike when players die from an unforunate single roll. I understand it when it is a failed save because there is usually a fight that leads up to that moment. When it happens with a failed... well no, not failed but just an unlucky roll on a successful casting then I don't especially like it.

Fair enough, but one can just put it under the high-risk high-reward category. A caster using the spell is going to know there's a chance, however slight, of messing it up; to avoid teleport becoming SOP the failure consequences have to - at least sometimes - be nasty.

For me a chance of being not where you intended but close gets rid of almost all the bugs so I thought I'd propose it.

Having to walk a few extra miles isn't nasty.

My favourite aspect of my solution which doesn't really seem to occur with yours is that you are almost always off target. You can be close but rarely are you going to be exactly where you want. It immediately gets rid of the scry/teleport problem. It gets rid of the problem of knowing someone is some place and teleporting in as (in mine) you'll always be off target.

As a player I know I'd just find that to be annoying, particularly if it happened every time. As a DM - meh, still annoying, as now I have to dream up possible encounters for the intervening distance if needed.

Actually can't the 3e version do it if you are familiar with the captain's chambers or something? Its an instantaneous effect that happens on your turn, the ship isn't really moving during your turn as far as that matters.

I guess it depends on whether the spell is looking for the particular surroundings wheverver they may be or a fixed GPS-style location.

If I've seen the inside of the Queen's carriage can I teleport there without knowing whether ithe carriage is currently in London or Birmingham? By the same token, if I know the inside of the captain's chambers can I teleport there without knowing where the ship actually is?

Lanefan

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Teleport (Level 5 Wizard spell)Casting Time: Variable

Teleport allows you to travel instantly between two locations. Most teleports are between teleportation circles or portals, but experienced casters can also cast the spell at a higher level to gain more powerful versions of the spell.
GM Note: The GM Notes for this spell indicate the likely consequences these spells have on your campaign and adventure design as they become available. If you dislike some of the consequences, you may want to adjust component cost, casting time or disallow certain variations of the spell entirely. Generally, the point at which you allow Teleportation to occur in your campaign marks the point where overland travel becomes a non-issue. Disallowing Teleporation or making it very difficult allows you keep travelling relevant to your campaign. Allowing Teleporation on the other hand allows the party to react quickly to new events and allows you to place adventures anywhere in your campaign world, potentially even making teleporation a neccessity for the party to achieve their goals.

Craft Teleportation Circle (Cast as Level 5 spell/Ritual)
Casting Time: 8 hours
Component Cost: 1,000 gp
You create a teleportation circle with an area between a 5 ft radius to a 20 ft radius (your choice). The circle can be disrupted by altering or removing the markings you made, or by destroying the foundation it is build on. Reparing a damaged circle takes only 10 % of the time and component cost.

You are the only person that knows the sigil sequence needed to teleport to this portal, you can freely share this key with other people.

You can designate this circle as your "arcane refuge". You can have only one such refuge of this type at a time. As an arcane refuge, you have special privileges - the circle is automatically protected by a Magic Circle and Alarm within its boundary, and you are aware if someone uses the portal. You can augment the teleporation circle protection with further spells.

Other creatures can analyze the portal to identify you. If the portal is your refuge, it can also be used as a physical connection to you, similar to a hair lock or a drop of blood.

GM Note: This spell is simply for explaining how teleporation circles even form, and the arcane refuge special ability is for the Teleport to Refuge spell - but can also serve its own purpose. By establishing a "guarded" teleporation circle at their home base, the players can feel a bit safer - the tidbit with it serving also as a physical connection can still keep them paranoid - someone may infiltrate their base and find something that would otherwise be very hard to obtain. But it also establishes a potential weakness about enemy spellcasters that have a "home base".

Teleport to Refuge (Cast as Level 6 spell)
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Component Cost: None
You teleport yourself and up to 8 creatures weighing no more than 1,000 lbs to your Arcane Refuge.
GM Note: This version of the spell allows the party to retreat to a save haven they created previously. It allows them to retreat in a dangerous situation with little chance of their opponent catching up. But they will now have to think about how they can get back to wherever they were last. This spell also can cut overland travel short if the party often needs to get home.

Linked Portal (Cast as Level 5 spell/Ritual)
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Component Cost: 100 gp
You teleport yourself and up ot 8 creatures weighing no more than 1,000 lbs to any other Teleporation Cricle whose sigil sequence you know. If you are casting this spell while on a portal, you can teleport twice the number of creatures and weight, or reduce the casting time to 1 minute.
GM Note: This version of the spell allows great distance travel. As the DM, you have control about where such portals may exist, but keep in mind that Linked Portal is likely to reduce the amount and impact of overland travel in your campaign.

Greater Teleport (Cast as Level 7 spell)
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Component Cost: 500 gp
You teleport to any location that you have previously visited with perfect accuracy.
If you have only a description of the location or using a diviniation spell or ritual to view the location, you can only land within 3d6-2 miles of the target location.
You and everyone teleporting with you are stunned for one round after the Teleport.

If you are at the location of a Teleportation circle, the casting time is reduced to a standard action.
GM Note: This version of the spell allows great distance travel at low risk. Once this spell becomes avaialble, long distance travel is probably no longer a challenge in your campaign.

 

[wrightdjohn]

Well here is my two cents worth....

Here is how I'd handle teleport

Teleport starts out as caster only, 25 feet range, line of sight. This could be a level 1 daily.

At higher levels, the range grows. But only at the highest levels does it span continents (18+). Teleportation Circles can be used as an augmenting device for the spell that increases range. For those that dislike

If you teleport to someplace you have never seen IN PERSON you are stunned for d6 rounds. You must know where a place is at to teleport there.

At higher levels you can trade range for additional passengers. Those passengers are automatically stunned d6 rounds. I might allow for magic items that reduce or eliminate this at higher levels. Like a helm of teleportation. I might (might now) allow fellow wizards who have the spell prepared go along without being stunned if they have IN PERSON seen the destination.


My Scrying Limitations
1. It has a range based upon level. Even 18+ wizards though can only do it 50 miles.
2. You only see the immediate area of the target and cannot zoom out or in. If that's not enough info to know where the target is at then that's tough. So teleportation is not possible from a scry unless you already know of the area.

Clairvoyance
1. You must select a specific spot to view. As such you could already teleport to that spot. This spell does not count as viewing IN PERSON.

 

[wrightdjohn]

I believe in absolute positioning for teleport. So a captains cabin can't be teleported into without knowing where the ship is at. Scrying is different. It allows the captain to be the target and that can show you his cabin but you still can't teleport there unless you know where the ship is at.