Tell me about 2E's excessive product-necessity

[Alzrius]

I've long heard people complain about how back in the days of AD&D Second Edition, you were often forced to have a multitude of non-core books, since they all referenced material from each other. Personally, I don't really believe that. I got into the game with 2E, and I bought a truckload of 2E materials, most of which I loved (and still love), and I just don't recall that much instance of a product requiring you to use another non-core product without it giving you something to help (alternate reference, abbreviated stat block, etc).

Thus, I'm asking people here to list examples of this so-called "product creep" that 2E was rife with. Please post a product you remember that referenced something you could only get in another book. To try and keep this marginally accurate, here are some guidelines for this:

1) Things that reference the 2E PHB, DMG, and MM don't count. I know, duh. This one is a no-brainer, but I want this to be as clear as possible.

2) Campaign-specific books that reference the campaign setting do not count. You can't really be that upset if a Dark Sun adventure required you to have the Dark Sun boxed set. That's just implied.

3) When given an abbreviated stat block, or an alternate listing, it doesn't count as "product creep". They aren't requiring you to have the other book here, since they're giving you the basic information needed, or telling you what the substitute is.

4) Products that were obviously meant to be sets don't count. If you bought Dawn of the Overmind, which was part of the adventure series based on the Illithiad, then you really don't have a right to be angry if it references material from the Illithiad.

So, with that in mind...was 2E really all that bad?

 

[Tallok]

I liked 2e
Didn't do too much with the books, as I sort of used a 2e/1e, but I don't remeber seeing many problems

 

[maddman75]

One instance I recall - the elves handbook assumed you also had the Bard's handbook for some of the kits. I also seem to recall several products referencing the Tome of Magic, even after that book was out of print.

A bigger problem was multiple incompatible systems, like the Complete Handbook series and the Player's Option series. ALso the products were not balanced against each other AT ALL. The kits in the Priest's handbook were orders of magnitude weaker than the ones in the Elves handbook.

 

[Perun]

The one I really detested was the Menzoberranzan boxed set (for the FR setting). It constantly referenced Drow of the Underdark accessory, which was long out of print. But half of the monsters and spells mentioned in the Menzo-set were from that books and it had "... (as described in the Drow of the Underdark accessory)..." all over the book.

Also, as someone mentioned, it was nearly impossible to include all the books from the Complete series and have a balanced game. Although, to my preference, the Thieves' Handbook was by far the best, the kits and options there were not one, but at least three orders of magnitude weaker than the options presented in the Complete Book of Elves.

They also constantly added new versions of the already existant optional rules. I can't remember how many versions of sap and the way to knock someone unconscious there were...

 

[Dagger75]

Dark Sun REQUIRED the psionic handbook. All the monsters had psionic abiliteis and there were NO stat blocks for how to use it.

 

[residieu]

Dark Sun REQUIRED the psionic handbook. All the monsters had psionic abiliteis and there were NO stat blocks for how to use it.

I don't see this as a problem. If psionics were integral to the Dark Sun setting,
it only makes sense that you need the psionics handbook for it. I suppose
they could have increased the size of the Darksun setting book and included
all the psionics rules in there, but that would seem a waste.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Our gaming group has run several lengthy AD&D2E books - and we never bought any of the "Complete" books...

 

[Alzrius]

Dark Sun REQUIRED the psionic handbook. All the monsters had psionic abiliteis and there were NO stat blocks for how to use it.

IIRC, didn't the original Dark Sun boxed set say it required use of the PsiHb on the back of it?

Likewise, the revised Dark Sun boxed set did not require the PsiHB, since it included a rather thick booklet of the revised psionics system, giving you everything you needed to use it in play (that same system was in Player's Option: Skills and Powers).

 

[hunter1828]

I never felt like anything in 2e (or any edition, for that matter) was necessary.

I owned most of the "Complete" series, the PHB, DMG, MC, all FR stuff and a smattering of other things (Ravenloft, Darksun, Planescape, Spelljammer, etc). I used maybe a 1/10th of it in any given session. Maybe. I used maybe 1/2 of it in any given campaign. Maybe.

It wasn't necessary and frequently I'd wing it even when I did own a book referenced just to keep from slowing things down.

I don't believe in product creep, not then, not now.

But that's just me.

hunter1828

 

[Quilwood]

Well I've sold all my 2e books but one, but I definetly remember the product necessity.

The only book I have left from 2e is Cload and Dagger (the last FR book, that is a bunch of fluff right before the current FRCS). I just started a campaign in Westgate and ran into a product necessity. On page 152 it says, "Westgate's dripping, partly flooded sewers are said to be the lair of a horrible water monster, including a huge quelzarn (a type of sea serpent detailed in the Wyrmskull Throne adventure (TSR #11405)) that has been known to snatch sailors off the decks of ships moored in harbor."

P.S. if anyone has the stats on a quelzarn I'd love to know what they are.