Tell me about eTools ...

[kingpaul]

I gave up on it long ago. I was an original purchaser that waited for the initial release forever. It was disapointing. CMP took it over eventualy, and I had renewed hope. But in the end I gave up. I cant see spending another $100 or more to get up to what I want and then a few $ here a few $ there for more... I just cant afford it.

But with any other generator (other than PCGen), to get the WotC information, you'd have to enter the information in yourself. And that is possible with eTools as well, especailly via eTools Helper. You don't have to buy the datasets if you don't want to.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

But with any other generator (other than PCGen), to get the WotC information, you'd have to enter the information in yourself. And that is possible with eTools as well, especailly via eTools Helper. You don't have to buy the datasets if you don't want to.

Yes, but I allow the players to use any of the books I own when making their characters and the DMs I play with also allow the same thing. I hate restricting player's choices based on the fact that the tool that we are using to generate characters doesn't yet have that book available or I didn't feel like paying to download a dataset that had it in it.

I don't currently use any programs for character generation for this one reason. I used to use PCGen continuously back in the day it had all of the books available at the time built into it. I still maintain that legally, it's dubious as to whether or not the small amount of information in these datasets actually counts as breaking the copyright.

I was one of the developers of PCGen when they made the deal with WoTC and the code monkeys decided to trash all the datasets at the time and tell everyone on the developer list to get rid of all copies of the datasets and never to distribute them. I understand that WoTC offered them a deal where they might be able to legally distribute these datasets if they played along and got rid of them temporarily. I agreed with the decision because I thought they were making a deal to distribute datasets for free by being licensed by WoTC. It didn't happen that way, they instead got a deal to fix e-tools and sell datasets and became licensed to sell datasets for PCGen as well. However, the fact that the datasets cost money is what makes them useless to 90% of people who are fairly broke after buying ALL of the books that we need datasets for.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a rant. I still think that sales of e-tools or RPG Toolkit would probably double or triple if the datasets were free, thereby making up the money they'd be making from datasets currently. Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[kingpaul]

Yes, but I allow the players to use any of the books I own when making their characters and the DMs I play with also allow the same thing. I hate restricting player's choices based on the fact that the tool that we are using to generate characters doesn't yet have that book available or I didn't feel like paying to download a dataset that had it in it.

I'm not sure what that has to do with my statement that only datasets are only available for sale for eTools and PCGen, yet you can create the datasets yourself if you wish.

I don't currently use any programs for character generation for this one reason. I used to use PCGen continuously back in the day it had all of the books available at the time built into it. I still maintain that legally, it's dubious as to whether or not the small amount of information in these datasets actually counts as breaking the copyright.

That was WotC's stand when the board, at the time, sat down with Anthony Valterra, then Brand Manager of D&D.

I was one of the developers of PCGen when they made the deal with WoTC and the code monkeys decided to trash all the datasets at the time and tell everyone on the developer list to get rid of all copies of the datasets and never to distribute them. I understand that WoTC offered them a deal where they might be able to legally distribute these datasets if they played along and got rid of them temporarily. I agreed with the decision because I thought they were making a deal to distribute datasets for free by being licensed by WoTC. It didn't happen that way, they instead got a deal to fix e-tools and sell datasets and became licensed to sell datasets for PCGen as well. However, the fact that the datasets cost money is what makes them useless to 90% of people who are fairly broke after buying ALL of the books that we need datasets for.

You've got some of your statements skewed. The PCGen board had been trying to talk with WotC over the inclusion of the WotC datasets for some time. At GenCon 2002 they were able to do so. During that conversation, Anthony Valterra said that it was WotC's position that PCGen was infringing upon WotC's IP, and, because of that, PCGen would need to remove the WotC IP-related datasets from distribution. It was mentioned at that time that if PCGen became d20 compliant (which it was for a while) that PCGen may be able to once again distribute said datasets. Now, I was also around at this time. It was stated that if you had those datasets, you couldn't distribute them because of the IP issues. I don't recall statements saying you had to destroy the copies on your hard drive.

Now, PCGen did not get a deal to fix eTools, that was those folks who run CMP. While there is some overlap in leadership, the two entities are separate in what they do.

I am not an agent of CMP, however, I'm sure that the permission to distribute Wotc IP in the form of datasets comes with a licensing fee. They pass this on to their customers. Also, they pay the folks who create the datasets for them.

And as I said earlier, you can create the material you want yourself without having to buy the datasets.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a rant. I still think that sales of e-tools or RPG Toolkit would probably double or triple if the datasets were free, thereby making up the money they'd be making from datasets currently. Of course, I could be wrong.

On that, I can not comment because I have no knowledge on the marketing/business decisions on these license datasets.

 

[thalmin]

I still think that sales of e-tools or RPG Toolkit would probably double or triple if the datasets were free, thereby making up the money they'd be making from datasets currently. Of course, I could be wrong.

Sure, if the price didn't increase to pay for all the "free" datasets. There are a lot of people that don't use everything. I prefer to pay for the sets I will use, not for the sets I won't.
Also, where is the incentive to get each new set out in a timely manner, or at all, if it's not being paid for?

 

[Chaz]

Sorry to get this started. Once again I was really all for the Etools working out. I think that if they had released the 3.5 basic upgrade free to all current users of Etools to make up for all the years of trouble, id have probably stuck with it and bought some of the extra data sets and be still using it today. Dont get me wrong, I understand what CMP's situation was But.... oh well its water under the bridge.

Peace

 

[mattcolville]

Here's what I'm afraid of.

CMP has a core of highly informed users to whom it pays attention. The vast majority of potential users are turned away by the byzantine website and less than user-friendly products currently availible.

They release RPGToolkit.

The core users are happy, CMP feels as though they have suceeded.

The website and information is still awful and as a result, lots of people (the ones who aren't already part of their devcommunity) don't use the product. Some of them complain.

CMP ignores them, because their community of supporters are happy.

I think I'd feel a lot better if the people who've come away from their site and products scratching their heads were the ones they listened to, but this doesn't appear to be the case.

 

[kingpaul]

CMP has a core of highly informed users to whom it pays attention. The vast majority of potential users are turned away by the byzantine website and less than user-friendly products currently availible.

You consider both eTools (program and datasets) and PCGen datasets less than user-friendly? Just want to make sure I'm understanding your statements correctly.

The website and information is still awful and as a result, lots of people (the ones who aren't already part of their devcommunity) don't use the product. Some of them complain.

What about the website is awful? They have the menu on the left hand side.

CMP ignores them, because their community of supporters are happy.

I think I'd feel a lot better if the people who've come away from their site and products scratching their heads were the ones they listened to, but this doesn't appear to be the case.

And why do you think that CMP doesn't listen to people?

 

[thalmin]

I like ETools, and I thank CMP for making it usable. But I hate their website, though it has gotten better. It is too difficult to find where the datasets are (I don't know if what I'm looking for is a single, a bundle or a combo, I just want to find book ABC.) And I quickly get fed up with their boards. Ask a question, then try to find the answer among the comments about bananas. It can get frustrating.
Don't get me wrong. They are friendly, and they are helpful. But often times they are too playful.
That's me. YMMV

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I like ETools, and I thank CMP for making it usable. But I hate their website, though it has gotten better. It is too difficult to find where the datasets are (I don't know if what I'm looking for is a single, a bundle or a combo, I just want to find book ABC.) And I quickly get fed up with their boards. Ask a question, then try to find the answer among the comments about bananas. It can get frustrating.
Don't get me wrong. They are friendly, and they are helpful. But often times they are too playful.
That's me. YMMV

Agreed with everything.

 

[kingpaul]

(I don't know if what I'm looking for is a single, a bundle or a combo, I just want to find book ABC.)

Well, a single is dataset for just one program (eTools or PCGen). Combos are for those datasets that you want for both eTools and PCGen. Bundles are like-minded datasets grouped together for a reduced cost...like the 3.0 mega-bundle, the Complete Series bundle, etc.