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Telling a story vs. railroading

Quas, I'm not a grognard, so I have no idea if this order makes any sense, I'm just throwing out Letters and Numbers, but if a DM goes, "Okay, I'm going to start with G1, move to T1-4, with G2 in the middle, then jump into G3 to D1-2, and end on Q1 to finish the campaign," then how can you not consider that a total railroad?

Well, okay, saying that isn't a railroad, but making it happen is. There's a total lack of Player input. This is what the PCs are doing. This is what is going to happen. That's pretty much the definition of railroading.
 

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rounser said:
I think that this is because railroading is so built into pencil and paper D&D in a "you get what you're given" way (just look at this thread), and computer gamers don't put up with such shackles to the same degree in their FRPGs. Why should they? Instead of one DM, a whole bunch of game designers can make their world big and flexible, and with no word count to worry about the amount of material can be exponentially bigger than that in a published module.

See now then I'm thinking those players would be happier sticking to computer RPG's if "freedom" is what theyre after.


rounser said:
My point is that a campaign arc can be improved by not forcing the players in this way, and actually giving them some control over the course of the campaign, although as I've noted earlier this can be a lot more challenging for the DM, and would balloon out word count if done in module form, so generally isn't done...and so things are as they are now.

And if youre not up to the challenge as a DM then what? Youre a bad DM? The one thing you havent addressed is what I call the work : fun ratio. I'm a DM that likes to be prepared and know where the game is going. If the players let me know what they want at the beginning of the game then I can accomodate them if it's something that I also think would be fun. If not then we can come to a middle ground. But if they dont tell you (and in my experience most of them dont in any significant detail anyway) then you have to plan around them. You look at whatever background that they give you and work with it. For DM's like me for whom time is a factor, I use pre-written adventures. Now I work in the players backgrounds and issues into the adventure but basically I run the adventures with little modification.

Now if the players dont like the particular adventure, I'm not gonna force them to play through it, we'll do an ingame reason as to why they cant or wont go back and they can do something else. Or I'll alter the plot a bit to give them another way to complete the overall objective. But it annoys the crap out of me to think that becasue I use a published adventure that I'm Railroading my players. Screw that.


rounser said:
Railroading also solves a design problem for D&D: What if the PCs go to the Valhingen Graveyard whilst they're too low level to handle it? Ruins of Adventure lets them get thumped until they die or retreat. With the advent of 3E, something like a lock that only a mid-level character could open might help keep lower level PCs out, but arguably this is a "choice killer" of it's own. It's an interesting topic to me, largely because the game seems to sidestep or handwave it.

D00d, It's just as easy for a DM to leave a world or area open and let the players and thier characters take the risk of going into an area that is too rough for them. Even computer RPGs lock areas that are too powerful/lethal for the PC's at the present time. Once again the things that youre talking about are up to the DM to implement and when they are impliment they are often done so to PROTECT THE PC's. I let my players know straight up, there are areas on the map that have things that can kill you outright. If you want to go there that's your buisness, but you will most assuredly DIE.

HORRIBLY.

IMHO, players who do things like that are not only purposefully disruptive, but dumb also. But that's just me.
 

ThirdWizard said:
Quas, I'm not a grognard, so I have no idea if this order makes any sense, I'm just throwing out Letters and Numbers, but if a DM goes, "Okay, I'm going to start with G1, move to T1-4, with G2 in the middle, then jump into G3 to D1-2, and end on Q1 to finish the campaign," then how can you not consider that a total railroad?

It's T1-4, G1-3, D1-2, D3, then Q1. :)

ThirdWizard said:
Well, okay, saying that isn't a railroad, but making it happen is. There's a total lack of Player input. This is what the PCs are doing. This is what is going to happen. That's pretty much the definition of railroading.

Yeah, but it's not a total lack of player input. At anytime the players can say "Nope, we dont want to do this anymore." And then it's the DM who wont have a choice but to either scuttle the adventure and do something else or walk.

I'm seeing a fair amount of nitpicking here, because within the scope of ANY ADVENTURE SCENARIO, there's a direction. Even the the most liberal DM who lets the players have all the choices in the world is going to have to provide some sort of guidence for those same players at some point to help get them from point A to B. Under the perameters that some of you are leaning toward THAT's railroading as well. It's all an illusion of choice and to say one is different from the other because of personal preference and playstyle is a bit dishonest.
 

See now then I'm thinking those players would be happier sticking to computer RPG's if "freedom" is what theyre after.
If the alternative is linear adventure paths, then yeah, I guess. There exists a possibility to change, though. Apart from reasons of workload and it just plain being easier for designers and DMs alike to railroad the PCs, I think a lot of the way things are as they are is to some extent cultural and traditional.
And if youre not up to the challenge as a DM then what? Youre a bad DM? The one thing you havent addressed is what I call the work : fun ratio.
No, you're not a bad DM. I haven't said that anywhere, and if it's implied then it shouldn't be.

I'm simply saying that I see the reasons for why most people railroad (including myself), but that the game would probably improve if it was more conducive to allowing player choice. I've stated the reasons for why most people railroad, and I'm not asking anyone to change, but Quasqueton and yourself seem to be taking the idea of "less railroad would probably improve the campaign" to be an affront on your playing style.

Heck, the game would be better if we had animated holographic miniatures, too, but that's no affront to using poker chips on a battlemap.
D00d, It's just as easy for a DM to leave a world or area open and let the players and thier characters take the risk of going into an area that is too rough for them.
I can see a couple of problems with this:

a) D&D parties have no way of knowing the relative toughness of a monster until they're deep into the encounter (i.e. have suffered significant damage).

b) If the monster is tough enough and faster than them, they may not be able to retreat when they've worked that out, calling for either DM fudging or character deaths.

You can put on the kiddie gloves by having "hint hint" encounters that PCs can escape from on the edges of a tough area, or have in-game signposts up saying "bad idea, don't go here yet", but how do the NPCs know what the PCs are capable of? How do the PCs tell between "everyone who's gone there has died" and a "you're 12th level now, everyone who went there and died was 6th level or less...have a go".

Maybe PCs need a mentor who can say, "Ahem, well yes, I did say the Marshes of Certain Doom would spell certain doom for you a month ago, but you cleared out the Canyon of Easy Pickings, so I think you can handle it now." Seems a touch metagamey, and asks how the NPC knows that the Marshes of Certain Doom are that tough unless he's some kind of Elminster (which brings problems of it's own), but this is a metagamey issue.

MMORPGs solve this dilemma by letting you consider a monster, and basically you get told it's CR (or an abstract notion of that relative to your own level). D&D doesn't do this, as far as I'm aware.
 
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Quas, I'm not a grognard, so I have no idea if this order makes any sense, I'm just throwing out Letters and Numbers, but if a DM goes, "Okay, I'm going to start with G1, move to T1-4, with G2 in the middle, then jump into G3 to D1-2, and end on Q1 to finish the campaign," then how can you not consider that a total railroad?

Well, okay, saying that isn't a railroad, but making it happen is. There's a total lack of Player input. This is what the PCs are doing. This is what is going to happen. That's pretty much the definition of railroading.
If a DM said that, and *forced* the PCs to do those and go there, then yes, that is railroading -- a *DM* action. But when events, clues, escaped enemies point/lead to the next adventure module, the PCs will probably naturally head that way. The PCs deciding to follow the plot hooks for in-game, in-character, logical, natural reasons is not a DM railroading.

A good series of modules (as the T, G, D, and Q are) has pointers, clues, and such pointing/leading to the next adventure in the series, enticing the PCs to go with the plot. It's not a case of the PCs suddenly being compelled to head for an unrelated adventure for no reason.

If you think a DM setting up to run a pre-made adventure is railroading, then do you only play in adventures randomly created minute by minute? I mean, if room 1 is connected to room 2 by a door, then by your definition, the DM is railroading you into room 2. And lord help you if an enemy from room 1 flees into room 2 -- that's just heavy handed railroading.

This discussion has gone from confusing to downright surreal. I should just bow out of it now, because I can't conceive of the thought process that leads to this definition of railroading. It really is beyond my comprehension.

Quasqueton
 

ShinHakkaider said:
Yeah, but it's not a total lack of player input. At anytime the players can say "Nope, we dont want to do this anymore." And then it's the DM who wont have a choice but to either scuttle the adventure and do something else or walk.

Yeah, as long as the DM gives up his plans if the game calls for it, then it isn't railroading. But, I see on these boards often enough DMs setting out plans for their campaign like this, and I have to wonder how eager someone will be to change it after they put so much effort into planning it and get their hopes up about how much fun it will be to run.

I know as a DM I've had my hopes dashed by PCs not being intersted in plot hooks, and I've never planned anything out of that magnitude.

There is a Player in my game who likes to be railroaded. He's criticized me (constructively, I'll note) that my campaigns lack focused direction and story. He really likes a game where the DM knows how its going to end before he sits down, with every plot twist and move painstakingly planned out and a firm hand in PC direction.

And, he eats that up. It's what he loves, and he plays in another game where the DM does exactly that. The DM wrote his character backstory, even. And, that's not a bad thing. He enjoys himself immensely, and I think with any discussion on railroading, it is to be noted that railroading is not an inherently bad thing. Like any other aspect of the game, if that's what you want, then more power to you.

I'm seeing a fair amount of nitpicking here, because within the scope of ANY ADVENTURE SCENARIO, there's a direction.

That's not my intention, though I am quite the nitpicker naturally. I'm of the oppinion that the people sitting down to game have the unspoken rule that they will play what the DM is ready for (whether that's a module, his notes, or just whatever he can think of), because it is, in the end, a game.
 

Quasqueton said:
If you think a DM setting up to run a pre-made adventure is railroading, then do you only play in adventures randomly created minute by minute? I mean, if room 1 is connected to room 2 by a door, then by your definition, the DM is railroading you into room 2. And lord help you if an enemy from room 1 flees into room 2 -- that's just heavy handed railroading.

Isn't that a strawman? Hmm maybe not... something like that? Slippery Slope? Bah! It's been so many years since I took a class in logic and debate. But, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if before the first PC is even created and before the DM knows the personallity behind the different PCs that he's DMing for, and he already knows what the final encounter of the campaign is going to be, then that doesn't really sound like a very PC involved game.
 

Lanefan said:
Railroading rears its ugly head when the PC's lose choice over what they do. It's an easy trap to fall into...guilty as charged here, on occasion...and most often comes up when an adventure devloves into a complete-the-steps-to-finish-or-die-trying situation.

That said, once in a while (but *only* once in a while) a little choo-choo can be a Good Thing.

Once in a while? Something really fun (though painful, fun in that way like watching the people eat bugs on fear factor is fun) is giving the players total and complete freedom, then sitting back and watching chaos ensue.

After a new player to our group had mumbled "guffah cough railroad" a couple of times, I would just pit the group against a fortified location: "there's hostages on the plane held by terrorists, rescue them".

When asked for parameters, every answer was designed to offer more choices not eliminate them "what do the authorities say" was answered with "they're deferring to you, their hostage rescue experts".

Questions about feasibility of frontal assault were met positively, as were questions about negotiations.

The actual assault took place the NEXT WEEK. That's right, they spent an entire game session trying to figure out what to do. I have many, MANY other stories about game sessions lost when players are handed a list of rumors that I am (so far as they know) all equally prepared to run.

Arguments can last for hours.

So as a very experienced DM I say, most new players that cry railroad, havent yet learned that the herd of cats that is a group of players need a gentle, but firm control of the DM.

When I say cats, I mean like indoor cats. They've never been out in the cold cruel world of "what do you want to do" directionless DMing and don't know that they have no claws.

They also have full run of the house, with an enormous range of options within that house. But there are boundaries.

If that's railroading, then in my experience not only do I do it, but most players welcome it.

Chuck
 

If a DM said that, and *forced* the PCs to do those and go there, then yes, that is railroading -- a *DM* action. But when events, clues, escaped enemies point/lead to the next adventure module, the PCs will probably naturally head that way. The PCs deciding to follow the plot hooks for in-game, in-character, logical, natural reasons is not a DM railroading.
All you've said here is that all the plot hooks lead to only one module, which is railroading the PCs into the next module. If they led to more than one module, and player choices had impact on which of those would be led to, then you might have an argument for it not being railroading.
 
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I haVe found that the best games I run begin with me begining an area with a lot of possible adventures, a strong adventure hook for a "big" dungeon that the PCs know they cannot tackle starting out, and a strong adventure hook for a "maiden voyage" adventure. But the area is literally seeded so that the PCs can go in any direction and seek out something. This is, IMHO, one of the real draws of the Wilderlands setting -- PCs can wander about, involving themselves in all sorts of things.

That said, I do not believe that anything that takes control away from the PCs is railroading. That is simply too broad a definition to be of any value. I do not believe that charm spells constitute railroading (by forcing PC action) any more than I believe paralysis is railroading (by forcing PC inaction). That sort of reasoning results in PC death becoming lumped into the inflated term "railroading". Obviously, the DM is forcing me to make a new character. :confused: :uhoh:

If you decide to try to steal the cash box in a crowded bar room and get caught, and then face the consequences, it is not "railroading" in the sense that term is typically used in. It's a bad situation, sure, and if they cut off your hand or leave you to languish in prison it's a worse situation. Freedom of action includes, perforce, the ability to take actions whose consequences curtail your freedom.

The DM saying "I am going to run Age of Worms for those interested in playing it" is not railroading. The players have a choice going into it; they know what they're getting, and they have tacitly agreed to it by playing.

The classic dungeon traps include sliding walls that force a party to discover a new route, and pit traps that send parties to a lower level of the dungeon than expected. To my mind, these are not railroading. One can easily imagine a whole campaign revolving around finding a way out of a massive dungeon. The WLD is centered on this theme, and back in my 2e days I considered running a game where PCs started at the bottom of my mega dungeon and worked their way up (I had whole cities in there). These are perfectly valid campaign possibilities, and the fact that they limit PC choices to some extent does not mean that the game itself becomes a linear progression predetermined by the DM.

Being sent on a mission under some threat isn't railroading, unless the threat is managed in metagaming (i.e., there is no way for clever players to eliminate the threat, there is no way to even try to avoid the mission and run for the hills, and there is no way to simply accept that whatever is threatened may befall the PCs and stoically refuse).

While the plots in Edgar Rice Burroughs' novels are often transparent, they are worth examination in terms of this discussion because his characters frequently face situations that would be considered "railroading" by several posters here if they occurred in adventure design, but which his protagonists deal with in ways that defuse the "railroading" aspects. Tarzan is captured and threatened many, many times. None of these times dismay him, nor do they prevent him from using his considerable skills and wits to prevent others from controlling his actions. If they do have a temporary advantage over him, he refuses to give into their demands whenever possible and bides his time until he can get revenge.

Doctor Who (especially the older series) offers many more examples of situations that, in the typical RPG session, would become unmitigated railroading, but which the Doctor and/or his companions turn instead to their advantage. Conan never sulked in the corner because his avenues of choice seemed limited; like Tarzan, he sought out the best avenue or tried to do the unexpected. Frodo's quest inexorably led him to Mount Doom, but he had the choice to abandon that quest and live (or die) with the consequences.

When the DM thwarts you from trying to seek out the best avenue, or prevents you from doing the unexpected, that's railroading. When the DM metagames in new consequences above and beyond those that would logically arise, not because the world is reacting to the PCs, but because the DM is trying to keep you to the plan, that's railroading.

All games are linear, regardless of who is driving. If the game includes dungeons A. B. and C, and the players choose to go to B first, then A, then C, that B-A-C path is still linear. If the DM sets up A so that it can be survived at low levels, B so that it can be survived at mid levels, and C so that it can be survived at high levels, gives the players the means to learn this, and then lets them decide which order to tackle the dungeons in, that isn't railroading. Not all options have to be equally good. Some players may choose paths that go back and forth between the dungeons as their skills grow. Even low-level divination spells, properly used, can allow PCs to tackle potentially dangerous areas by giving them the means to avoid or specifically tailor the means of defeating an encounter.

In conclusion, if the DM is upfront about running an adventure path, and the players agree, then it is not a railroad. If the DM is upfront about running a series of adventures, with the time between occurirng offstage, and the players agree, then it is not a railroad, even if the DM picks the adventures, and even if he decides you start with no equipment at the start of one of them.

If the DM claims to run a free-form campaign, but insists that adventures be followed in a given order, and refuses to allow the PCs to see what is over the Hollow Hills instead of going to the Tomb of Bad Plumbing, then it is a railroad.

Which is a long way of saying that, in part, I agree with Quasqueton and in part I agree with rounser.

Just my $.02, of course, and IMHO.

RC
 
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