Temperature needed for forging weapons

Tilla the Hun (work) said:
Not even coal will burn hot enough to do basic metallurgy w/o a jet of air to fuel the temperature up.

Okay, then another question arises...

We're talking about dwarves. Living underground - highly enclosed spaces, with ventilation issues. We're talking about a fire that will eat up more air than many, many dwarves, right? Sounds like an issue just waiting to arise...
 

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abri said:
It is a bit more complex than that...
Before you can start the forging process you have got to extract the iron from the ore and make it into steel.
For this process you need intense heat.

You also need reducing conditions.
 

Umbran said:
Okay, then another question arises...

We're talking about dwarves. Living underground - highly enclosed spaces, with ventilation issues. We're talking about a fire that will eat up more air than many, many dwarves, right? Sounds like an issue just waiting to arise...


Dwarves are engineers. Any place they've lived for a couple of generations, they've solved their ventilation problems. A good strong forge probably already has it's own air shaft/engineering solution. Heck, it probably also solves the whole 'needs air pumped into' and 'needs heat trap' issues. They'd probably use mineral coal to boot, since they are already underground...

Here's some links on forging 'folded' steel and 'wootz' steel, along with some primers for the whole concept of steel... although if you're working with dwarves + dnd then just ignore these and declare that the local dwarven clerics summon up fire elementals... boom, whole problem is solved :)


Links:

Regarding construction of ‘folded’ steel blads:

http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/kap_5/advanced/t5_1_1.html

a primer on how ‘wrong’ so many people are when it comes to forging damascene (Damascus) steel. Contains many useful links.

http://metalrg.iisc.ernet.in/~wootz/heritage/WOOTZ.htm

A beaut of an article on true wootz steel

http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/articles/road_to_damascus/sword_forum1.html

And another – this one much more honest and upfront about the common myths.

Regarding history of steel and forging:

http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/kap_5/advanced/t5_1_4.html#Damascene techniques

Nice article – step by step history from copper age to wootz, accessible from earlier link.
 

Dwarves live underground of course, they can also tap into the earth's crust and use the heat there. If you can utilize lava in a form that you can use, you can use the thermal energy to work metal - problem solved.

I am sure some aspiring engineer has thought of seeing if lava could be used as a source of mineral wealth. If anyone does know a link would be nice or reference to the book.
 

Tilla the Hun (work) said:
Dwarves are engineers. Any place they've lived for a couple of generations, they've solved their ventilation problems.

Any HVAC engineer will tell you that no ventilation problem is ever permanently solved. Especially if you dont have modern air-moving technology.

If the population is not fixed, there will be issues. I mean, think of it - all that's needed to cause real havoc is an enemy with the wherewithal to dump sand, concrete, excrement, or something else down a few chimneys...
 

Lots of good info in this thread already. As a budding bladesmith and long-time DM, let me add a little:

Smelting/Bloomery operation: You do need high temperatures for this - this is the stage where you are actually melting the iron, separating it from the rock and impurities it is contained within. Of course, if your world is set up for having large veins of pure metals running through it (not realistic, but fine for an rpg) then this step is not needed.

Forging: Decently high temperature needed, but nothing close to what you need for the previous step. With a proper forced-air fire and any decent fuel you should be able to achieve the proper environment. (Some cultures have used long blowpipes or channels on a windy area to force air into the center of the fire - either of these is available to dwarven engineers, and probably more intricately made;)) Even welding temperatures (forge-welding two different pieces of metal into one) aren't as high as smelting temperatures.

Heat Treating/Tempering: The final steps in the actual forging process, these involve heating the steel to a specific temperature, then cooling it at a controlled rate (this is the 'quenching' process, where the hot blade is thrust into a vat of oil/water/brine, etc). This process is quite complicated, but for the current discussion about heat what you need is a controlled environment. A good smith can use his regular forge and judge by eye (quite within the means of a good dwarven craftsman, I'm sure). You don't need temperatures out of the range of standard forging.


How could these temperatures be reached without coal in an underground environment? I would say that the fuel is important, but not the whole picture. You would also need a good constant blast of air to the forge (as discussed above, easily within reach of the average dwarven engineer's skill). A good refractory material would help tremendously as well. A refractory reflects heat, trapping it in the forge, helping to reach higher temperatures and save fuel. Perhaps the dwarves found out long ago that a certain paste of minerals and special underdark mud reflects heat well and began using it in their forges.

The above is all mostly concerning steel and ironwork. Other metals like bronze, copper, etc forge at lower temperatures. Adamantine and other metals probably forge at higher temperatures, or perhaps they only achieve their full hardness from a special hardening/tempering process, and forge at steel-like temperatures. That's really up to DM fiat, as the DMG doesn't go into forging temperatures for special materials ;)

Regarding your dwarves and their coal shortage - if that is a plot point, if you want them to be low on fuel for forging, then that's fine. If you just want them to be low on coal, they could find any number of alternate fuels. Peat has been mentioned and could work. If there is a source of wood nearby, they could simply use charcoal (it works very nicely for forging). Lots of opportunity for adventure there, as they would have to venture out of their caves, cut trees, and burn it into charcoal all on the surface somewhere (unless you have underground trees, or mushrooms with a thick, wood-like structure to them).
 

spacemonkey said:
Smelting/Bloomery operation: You do need high temperatures for this - this is the stage where you are actually melting the iron, separating it from the rock and impurities it is contained within.

Iron can be smelted without melting. That is why classic wrought iron contains threads of slag. Smelters hot enough to melt iron (other than by lowering its melting point with large quantities of dissolved carbon) are quite a modern innovation: 19th century, I think, but perhaps late 18th.
 

AngelTears said:
Dwarves live underground of course, they can also tap into the earth's crust and use the heat there. If you can utilize lava in a form that you can use, you can use the thermal energy to work metal - problem solved.

How far down do you have to tunnel to hit lava? (Sure, it may be near the surface at volcanoes, but what if there isn't a volcano near yourbest iron-ore deposit?) How do you tunnel in conditions near the melting point of rock? Would anyone dare to live underground near an active volcano?
 
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Certainly you can smelt iron without actually melting it, but the technology to heat iron to the melting point was available by the 14th century in Europe from most accounts I've read (and sooner in Africa some would say). That is a technology level I can see dwarven craftsmen posessing in metalworking in the traditional DnD settings.

But the method doesn't really matter for these purposes, I would imagine. The important thing is that you do need a bit more heat for the smelting process than you usually need for forging.
 

I've always visualized Dwarves as using an analog to a Bessemer furnace. Giant vats of molten steel are VERY impressive to those backwards humans! ;)
 
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