Template Question

[Villano]

Okay, one of my DMs is going to start a 6th level monster game and I decided on a wererat monk. However, I also wanted to make up a back up PC, just in case. I finally decided to go with a half-dragon/half-dwarf fighter.

Now, here's where I ran into my problems. How do you figure out the HP and skill point total?

For a half-dragon, your hit die increases by 1 die type. I guess that this would mean that I'd use a d12 instead of a d10 as I advance fighter levels.

Now, I was wondering what my total HP would be as a 6th level PC. The ECL on a half-dragon is a +4, so I'd only be a 2nd level fighter. Do I get only 3d12 (1 for race and 2 for my 2 levels in fighter)?

That seems awfully low for a 6th level game (basically, a 3rd level barbarian). Or does it mean a d12 for each of my 4 levels of ECL (4d12)?

Also, the hit die matter plays into determining your initial skill points. The skill description for the template says, "A half-dragon has 6 skill points, plus int modifer, per Hit Die. Treat skills from the base creature's list as class skill and other skills as cross-class If the creature has a class, it gains skills for the class levels normally."

I take this to mean that I just go by the fighter skills for 2 levels and all levels of advancement, but do I get skill points for being a half-dragon (dwarf skills are appraise, craft, listen, and spot) prior to being a fighter? I assume that to be the case, but I need to know the hit die to find out that total.

Thanks for any help.

 

[Crothian]

Unless the template says you get HD or anything else you do not.

You won't get any additional HD, skill points, BAB, ST then a 2nd level fighter.

 

[silvertable81]

What about the HD increase?
If a Wizard becomes a Lich his HD increases to d12, does that go retroactively? Do his next Wizard levels use d12 or d4? What happens to his CON modifier?

 

[Crothian]

What about the HD increase?
If a Wizard becomes a Lich his HD increases to d12, does that go retroactively? Do his next Wizard levels use d12 or d4? What happens to his CON modifier?

10th level wizard with con 14 has HD equal to 10d4+20 average 45

Turn him into a Lich and he has 10d12 HD average 65

It is retroactive, but so is his con modifier disappearing.

 

[AuraSeer]

I think you're confusing the advancement rules for monsters and humanoids.

Monsters have a "monster class"-- that is, they can advance their HD based on monster type. If you're a carrion crawler, you start out with 3 HD, with the stats specified in the MM. You can advance without a class, to become a 9 HD carrion crawler, gaining feats and skill points as specified under Aberration in the MM.

Anything that advances "by character class" works differently. For those races, including PC races, there is no classless advancement. You cannot be a plain classless 1 HD dwarf; you must be a fighter, wizard, warrior, commoner, or whatever. (Stats in the MM are usually for a War1.) It's your first class that specifies your starting HD, skill points, et cetera.

The most logical way to apply a template to such a character is to first create it as a first-level member of a particular class. Apply the template at that point, including any modifiers to stats or hit die type. Then advance through additional levels normally.

Long story short: your half-dragon Ftr2 has 2d12 hit dice, and the skill points of a Ftr2. You do not get additional feats, skills, or HD for your race, because dwarves don't get such stuff and the template doesn't grant it.

Yes, you'll be very low on hp compared to other 6th-level characters. That's one of the tradeoffs you make in exchange for reach, wings, natural armor, breath weapon, elemental immunity, and 16 points of stat increases.

 

[Villano]

Okay, I see where I was getting the it die increase from. My mistake.

However, I still think I'm supposed to start with 3d12. Here's why:

First, we're treating the templates as monster races in this game. This means that you're born a half-dragon (btw, only large creatures get wings with that template) instead of being a dwarf and picking it up like a PrC (or getting turned into an undead).

Secondly, on p.24 of the DMG (the Monsters As Races section), it gives an example of an ogre who enters the game without a class and picks one up later. My understanding is that as a +4 ECL, I could play as that half-dragon as a 4th level PC without any class (dwarves are a +0 race to start). This would start me with the skill points and hit die of a half-dragon.

Upon reaching 5th level, I'd pick up fighter as a class and advance normally for that class (except for now having a d12 instead of a d10 hit die).

This would leave me with 1d12 for my race (and the first 4 levels) and 2d12 for my 2 levels of fighter.

However, I was a bit thrown by something in the Other Stats For Monsters segment which says that a PC playing an ogre with no class levels gets a +3 BAB. Does this mean a monster gets a +1 BAB bonus for every hit die beyond 1 (an ogre has a 4d8 HD, so it would get a +3 bonus)?

Not that this really relates to the half-dragon.

 

[AuraSeer]

Yes, you're right that the half-dragon template is added at "birth." That means your HD-size increase and all stat increases are retroactive. It does not mean that you get any extra dice.

There's no such thing as a classless dwarf, even if it has a template. The MM example dwarf is a first-level warrior. If you grow to adulthood without any class at all, you're actually a first-level commoner. If you decide to be a fighter, then you start your adventuring career at character level 5, as a Ftr1 with 1d12+Con hp. Then you advance from there.

 

[Skaros]

I agree with AuraSeer and the rest. The huge disadvantage to starting as a high ECL templatized race is that you lose out on a number of levels worth of HD progression, not to mention BAB, etc.

You are considered higher level for the purposes of XP and advancement not because you have a certain number of HD, but because you are that much more powerful than other PCs of the same class level.

If you compare your half-dragon/half-dwarf 2nd level fighter to a normal dwarven 2nd level fighter, you have significant advantages, and the extra +4 ECL is to equalize this.

Whether you can actually hold your own in combats with actual 6th level PCs is another story. With only around 20 hit points, you will have a lot of trouble if you plan on hitting the front lines...many creatures will drop you in a single hit.

Also, your BAB will be +2, meaning you are 4 levels away from having an extra attack! ouch!

I suggest lower ECLs for templates like half-dragon, if you actually want to see one every once and a while in a campaign.

-Skaros