D&D 4E Templates, Diseases, and 4E character options.

[neitherman]

Problem:
I am displeased with the lack of character options in 4e at low level's and the relative insignifigance of the choices players make in regards to their characters development compared to most other RPG systems. I am also displeased with the character options available at higher starting levels (levels 11-19 im looking at you!) I would LIKE for people to be able to Hyper-Specialize the way you could in 3.5, Yes, it made your character more difficult to keep alive, but it also made for more intresting game play, and frequently more intresting character deaths.

Suggested theoretical solution:
4E presents the most refined and well executed disease/poison rules ever. Alot of the old templates from 3.5 were "magical diseases" in most settings. (Vampirism,lycanthropy,ghoul-fever,etc)
What if we setup some largely incurable long term diseases to represent these conditions?
what if these diseases had both negative AND positive effects?
What if these diseases only move to the next state when an infected player character gains a level?

Sample Disease:
Troll-Rot (A Level 30 Disease)
(Insert Flavor Text Here)
----Initial State
INT-4
CHA-4
STR+4
Disease is easily curable at this stage
----Second Stage
Base Move speed -5
Character may now use Weapons of one size category larger than normal
Disease is curable but requires the intervention of a specialist.
----Third Stage
Refl-5
Will-5
Fort+2
AC+2
Disease is no Longer curable by anything short of divine intervention.
----Fourth Stage
WIS-2
DEX-2
(Insert undecided upon skill penalty)
Character Gains Regeneration 5
----Fifth Stage
Base Move Speed -5 (for a total penalty of -10)
AC+2
Fort+2
----Final Stage (six levels since PC is infected)
Character Loses One encounter power of his choosing
Character Gains Troll Healing as a racial at will reaction.
Disease is PERMANENT.

*This sample was very rushed and is likely imbalanced and full of holes*

WHAT KIND OF FEEDBACK/HELP WOULD BE MOST USEFUL:
1.Anyone have good ideas for intresting diseases players might not want cured?
2.Anyone already doing this and have a disease they want to share?
3.Anyone have any templates for printing this so it will be formatted largely the same way as wotc's stuff?
4.Anyone see any glaring problems or stupid mistakes in this idea? (before I make a few dozen of these)
5.Anyone have Suggestions on how to Flavor this stuff for an actual campaign?
6.Anyone have some awesome ideas for penalties or bonuses?
7.Compliments,comments,flames, Etc?


WHY WOULD I DO THIS?? (long version)
I should probably go ahead and make clear that my DnD group is vehemently mechanical. Our house rule is the ever popular "you may RP all you wish, but do not expect anyone to RP back" as such 3.5 with its plethora of templates Level adjustment's, prestige classes,pretty pretty walls of arithematic, and VERY workable rules for converting monsters for player use, is much loved. 4E's succinct and well organized combat is a signifigant draw for us, BUT without a more intriguing character progression has not garnered much of our time. Our only other complaint about 4e is that any munchkin worth his pointy shoes can completely destroy the balance of the game around lvl 23, but thats easy to fix. any character who reaches level 23 explodes....twice.

This means I have no idea how to "flavor" these mechanics. Its not my thing. If someones got some ideas I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR THEM, so that I can rip them off wholesale for use in our campaign.

Final thought:
UGH just realized vampirism is going to have at least 20 stages......

 

[Mesh Hong]

OK, I see this is your first post....so welcome aboard!

Now that that is out of the way I am a little confused as to your motives for the system you are proposing.

I am displeased with the lack of character options in 4e at low level's and the relative insignifigance of the choices players make in regards to their characters development ...<snip>.... I would LIKE for people to be able to Hyper-Specialize the way you could in 3.5

OK this seems like a reasonable starting position but then your stated solution is:

What if we setup some largely incurable long term diseases

Thats quite a jump.

I don't really see how contracting a disease is a character choice. I am cynical enough to think that this is just an attempt to become uber powerful at something while trying to balance it by being awful at something else. If this is your design goal then you would be better off stating that fact and comming up with some appropriate rules rather than by dressing it up as something else (i.e. an incurable disease).

Your stated disease is also a little hard to follow, you state it is a level 30 disease, but when reading it the final state is 6 levels away, so is this then a level 24 disease?

But your design goal states that it is the low levels that you wish to change so I am not sure where this disease is supposed to fit at all.

I don't really want to comment on the actual bonus/penalties you are using as an example because they appear all over the place and without knowing what level characters they will be affecting it is really hard to be constructive.

My advice would be to work up a rough level 1 disease so we can discuss it from there, or restate your design goal in a way that can be commented on.

Again welcome to Enworld, even if this post seems a little negative I would like to help you get your game system to where you want it to be.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I do see where your coming from, in general.

One thing I would suggest is to do some searching on this and probably other boards to see what people have done before. I know there have been a number of people playing with the disease track in various ways. Always good to take a look at the work of some other people to see how they did it.

It is a bit hard to comment on the example disease you posted. Certain things didn't seem to quite make sense. Like the movement penalties. 4e movement is normally specified in squares and typical characters will range from 5 to 7 squares movement. A -5 to movement rate is pretty much "you can't move at all" and nothing aside from a few very oddball epic character builds can move at speed 10, so -10 is definitely "you are now a plant". Perhaps you mean -5/10 feet per turn? If so it should be specified as -1/-2 in 4e to match with the square based distance standard.

The other bonuses/penalties seemed pretty extreme. One issue you'll run into is that slapping a +4 STR/-4 CHA onto a random character will probably be a pretty good benefit to one build and a giant nerf to another. A fighter with this 'penalty' would probably be very happy about it. An artful dodger build rogue would be practically crippled. That will be something to consider if you want to apply attribute modifiers.

You may want to study some of the monster functional templates in Chapter 10 of the DMG (around page 180). They are designed to let the DM quickly customize a monster by giving it a package of features. So for instance a PC afflicted by vampirism might progress in the direction of taking on certain of those characteristics. How you'll balance that out with disadvantages is hard to say exactly. Most advantage/disadvantage type trade-off mechanics in games tend to break down pretty easily and its a type of mechanism that has gotten a rather bad reputation amongst game designers. 4e is particularly notable in rejecting the whole concept in the core rules.

Depending on the type of group you play with explicit mechanical disadvantages may not even be needed. If the benefits of the disease are fairly modest then the rest can be dealt with by RP. Of course this won't work well in a lot of groups, but it is worth considering.

I'm not exceptionally fond of the concept of making disease tracks that are tied to level either. I know it is an obvious way to keep the advantages of being a vampire or werewolf somewhat in check. On the other hand it sort of seems like a fairly blatantly mechanical kind of approach. "Oh, you're 11th level now, your disease progresses...".

In any case, I think the general approach might work. Such characters are likely to be a bit more powerful than average, but ah well. One possibility would be to treat it like having a multi-class. The player would essentially do some power swaps. Having the disease would just give you access to these swaps. Taking the swaps might also represent some type of progression of the condition. In other words, you got bit by a vampire and if you want to start sucking blood, well, you can, but you're on the road to someplace! One nice advantage of that is it puts control of the process in the hands of the player to a large extent, which is always a good thing if it can be done in a reasonable way.

 

[weem]

First of all, a disclaimer... I'm not a math guy. I'm also not good at catching problems that can break systems/balance/etc.

With that said, I love thinking up these kinds of things - but I'm work and don't have much time so I am going to brainstorm here...

So the first thing I think is, because you are wanting these diseases to have bad AND good effects, we need to think of the good (I think the bad side is a bit easier - these are diseases after all).

So the first place I would start is stat bonuses/penalties because it seems obvious (and you have initial states starting with them).

If these are intended to be something that's not entirely bad, you will have to think of the benefit from a PC point of view - so in other words, what stat adjustments will they be okay with. For example, certain strikers might not mind something that gives him DEX at the cost of CON, or a controller gaining INT but losing WIS. Maybe you come up with quick lists of these (+1 DEX. -2 CON... +1 INT, -2 WIS... +1 STR, -2 DEX) and think of a theme for them.

First things that comes to mind...

Rage Fever:
Symptoms include weight loss, paling skin, lack of patience. As the body thins, it gains a heightened sense of responsiveness while becoming simultaneously more prone to various ailments. Victims are described as Gaunt, Frail and quick to temper.
----Initial State
+1 DEX
-2 CON

Mind Sapper:
Symptoms include an inability to focus on more than one thing at a time, but this focus on one thing is very defined and intense. Victims feel as though they are in a constant state of drowsiness, except when they find a topic they focus on - it allows them to zone out everything else and concentrate on one thing. At the same time however it makes them oblivious to what is happening around them. They become less aware of how their actions are effecting others. Victims have been described as Distant, Uncaring, and Forgetful.
----Initial State
+1 INT
-2 WIS


Again, these are off the top of my head real quick and you don't have to use them - I was attempting to show you how you might come to design some

*goes back to work... kind of*

 

[willows]

Here's a super-easy way to make a tradeoff that's reliably useful: Construct the disease (or whatever) as a package of powers.

For every disease power you acquire, you receive a DB-assigned disease vulnerability—these can be effect riders that are triggered by power keywords (see Night Walker below), triggered abilities that use up your actions (Unhallowed), or God of War-style special attacks that monsters can use against you (Stake in the Heart; someone else can figure out the wording for this).

So, for instance vampires:

(some powers here)

Disease Vulnerabilities:
A vampire's vulnerabilities allow him to be controlled.

Night Walker:
When you are hit by an attack with the Radiant keyword, the attacker pushes you 1 square.

Unhallowed
(immediate reaction; you are targeted by a Divine, Implement attack; encounter)
You lose your next move action.

Stake in the Heart
(close aura)
Monsters in the aura have the following power:
Stake Me (standard, encounter)
The monster makes a melee basic attack against you; if it hits you are dazed until the end of your next turn.

Monsters leaving and reentering the aura do not gain additional uses of the Stake Me ability.