Templating hit dice

[Alzrius]

I'm slightly confused about how to deal with templates that call for changes in hit dice.

Most templates that alter the base creature's hit die say that existing die should become a new die (i.e. hit dice becomes d12, etc). What I'm not sure about is how can this apply to class levels?

Let me elaborate. If my sixth level wizard becomes a vampire, his 6d4 becomes 6d12, but if he gains another level of wizard, does he now have 7d12, or does he have 6d12 + 1d4? It becomes rather awkward, especially where multiclassed characters are concerned (a level 5/3/2 fighter/rogue/sorceror who becomes a vampire goes from having 5d10 + 3d6 + 2d4 to just having 10d6, but again, does this hold true for levels gained in classes he had before the template? What about new classes? etc).

Help on this would be much appreciated.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

As always, there are exceptions (namely, the dragon disciple), but in the case of the vampire, re-roll all your d4s as d12s. When you gain a new Hit Die, it's a d12.

The Ftr5/Rog3/Sor2 vampire has 10d12 hit points, and for every level gained, regardless of class, you gain a d12.

Note that a vampire sorcerer kicks so much butt (that template is only balanced for fighters).

 

[Alzrius]

Thanks for the answer, but I still have some more questions. Namely, does this rule (that all previous and future hit dice gained are changed to the template's) hold for other, non-undead templates? (i can't think of any off the top of my head). Also, it doesn't seem balanced that only templated creatures get that hit die advancement. Why does a vampire with class levels get a d12 for every level, while, say, a ghoul has to use the prescribed class hit die?

 

[mmu1]

Well, undead are a pretty special case as far as templates go, since they have no CON score, hence no CON bonus, and need the large hit die to survive. A vampire fighter will actually get massively shafted by the hit die change most of the time, and a wizard or sorcerer with decent CON doesn't benefit all that much...

If memory serves, Half-Dragons also get a hit die change, but in their case, the hit die of the base creature goes up by one size- d4 to d6, d10 to d12, etc., so it's a more balanced progression for each class.

Don't know about the Ghoul template, haven't read it, but what I've heard of it on the site did sound screwy...

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Namely, does this rule (that all previous and future hit dice gained are changed to the template's) hold for other, non-undead templates?

No.

Undead and constructs never keep class Hit Dice - they always get d12 or d10. Any information to the contrary is in error.

Some templates, such as the Wood Elemental template from MotP, say to change the Hit Dice size to d8. These templates are only changing racial Hit Die, not class Hit Die.

Undead and constructs are a special exception to this rule.

Also, it doesn't seem balanced that only templated creatures get that hit die advancement.

Balancing templates is difficult. By their very nature they can be easily broken. Applying a template to a creature that the designer didn't think of applying the template to could result in a very powerful or very weak creature.

I applied Monte Cook's evil elemental template to an invisible stalker. That thing was higher than CR 11, believe me.

 

[Alzrius]

Undead and constructs never keep class Hit Dice - they always get d12 or d10. Any information to the contrary is in error.

Just out of curiosity, where in the Core books does it say that rule? I would have been able to save a lot of time and trouble if I could have found that before.

That would pretty much answer my question, but I've seen some cases of undead not having d12 hit dice that didn't seem in error. Head on over to Monte Cook's webpage and have a look at the free preview for Bonds of Magic: The Faithful (http://montecook.com/mpress_Faithful_preview.html). One of the characters seen there is a ghoul with four cleric levels. The hit dice for the cleric levels is 4d8. I already checked with Sean K. Reynolds himself, and he assured me that those hit dice are indeed meant to be d8's and not d12's, which casts the entire "undead always use d12 for any hit dice" paradigm out of whack. As near as I can tell, what you said about constructs is correct, but the theory of undead always using d12's seems to only hold true for undead templates. Undead creatures that weren't made with a template have to use normal class hit dice just like everyone else it seems, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Thoughts on this?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Now that is odd. I think someone (Sean himself?) discussed why undead always have d12s. I'll have an answer soon.

 

[Alzrius]

Thanks. I'll be eagerly awaiting the answer, since this has effectively made it damn hard for me to advance my undead creatures by level, or lay down various templates.

 

[kreynolds]

Balancing templates is difficult. By their very nature they can be easily broken. Applying a template to a creature that the designer didn't think of applying the template to could result in a very powerful or very weak creature.

Yup. Just look at the difference between a Fiendish Troll and a Fiendish Winter Wolf.