Thanks, guys, you've ruined Haste for the rest of us.

[Surefoot]

Okay, let me get this straight. So when the combat ended after the third round, and the wizard kept on casting his spells in the air against an imaginative foe, then yes, the wizard would be out of spells in the 10th round. Yes, you do have a point.

 

[Aloïsius]

I'm playing a 10th level wizard. Even with a very high int (26) I don't have that much spells to waste : buffing the party, toasting the ennemy, flying, plus he utility spells (dim door, detect thought, circle of invisibility...) I 'm unable to stay effective against more than two or three encounters per day. If i use haste (third level slot, and the other party members are always in the gimme gimme attitude), I ran out of spell far more quickly.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I'm still not sur eI'd call that a flaw though. Something you have to be aware of when casting it sure, but a flaw no. So just stay away of the situaiton on always casting it aks yourself, does this fight need haste to be cast, and if so do I need to blast spells left and right. IOW don't be wasteful in punk fights, only blast away in a challenging fight.

 

[Caliban]

I'm playing a 10th level wizard. Even with a very high int (26) I don't have that much spells to waste : buffing the party, toasting the ennemy, flying, plus he utility spells (dim door, detect thought, circle of invisibility...) I 'm unable to stay effective against more than two or three encounters per day. If i use haste (third level slot, and the other party members are always in the gimme gimme attitude), I ran out of spell far more quickly.

I don't know about you, but in the last two years I've been playing 3e, having more than 3 combat encounters in one day is very rare. Usually it's no more than 2 in one day.

 

[Aloïsius]

Yep. But too many people seems to considere that wizard have an unlimited amount of spells to throw. That's why (IMHO) haste was not so broken.

As for sorcerers, well... They utterly suck anyway, so it's not a problem if they cast dozen of haste spells per day

 

[Caliban]

Yep. But too many people seems to considere that wizard have an unlimited amount of spells to throw. That's why (IMHO) haste was not so broken.

As a player of an 11th level specialist wizard with a 24 int, I disagree. Unless facing multiple spellcasting opponents, I rarely had any trouble with running out of spells.

Haste made me more than twice as effective as any other party member in a straight up fight. Most of the fights revolved around the enemy spellcasters and opponents desperately trying to disable or kill me while the cleric tried to keep me alive and the fighters wacked anything that got to close to me.

As for sorcerers, well... They utterly suck anyway, so it's not a problem if they cast dozen of haste spells per day

Having played in the same party as an 11th level sorcerer, I would have to disagree with that as well. Sorcerers are even worse that wizards when it comes to a straight up fight, because they can last twice as long before running out of spells.

 

[Aloïsius]

For the sorcerer thing, I was joking. I just don't like the class. Turbo laser turet are effective but boring.

As for runing out of spells, well, since I use a lot of them to buff the party (create magic tatoo from FRCS, haste, circle of invisibility, see invisibility etc... I don't have that much spells (plus, I play an air elemental savant, and most of the monsters encountered are either resistant or immune to lightning, or have spell resistance. This is CotsQ. Ah, and as an air genasi, I'm only 9th level (started 8th, the DM is mean, and don't give so many xp)

 

[Petrosian]

IMX...

haste allowed the mage to throw spells more rapidly.

since the mage stops casting when the need is over, the only "lost spell" was the haste.

the savings in other spells... the cleric needs to throw fewer cures since the enemies died more quickly... made up for it and gave the party more longevity.

also IMX...

the frequency of encounters varies heavily by GM. It is easy and relatively normal to script plots which feature either or both. If a campaign features all of one or the other, thats on the gm and will likely affect playbalance in severe ways.

 

[Numion]

IMO the argument that Haste isn't good because you'll run out of spells quicker is flawed. Here are my reasons:

1) Haste doesn't require you to cast two spells a round, but the possibility of doing so, if need be, is very valuable.

2) Ending combats faster is of paramount importance in D&D. Hasted group can end a combat in around 60-80% of the time of non-hasted group. This is pretty important. If it in some battle isn't, of course the spellcasters shouldn't waste their spells, but that's just normal D&D tactics...

EDIT: what petrosian said, too.. didn't notice that

EDIT 2: A group of PCs can on the average spend X rounds in combat with enemy forces before resting. Any magic wich lowers the time a single combat takes actually increases longevity of the group, not vice versa. And at higher levels at least sorcerers have enough spell slots to make full use of haste.

 

[Quinn]

It has already been posted, but, just compare the new Haste (third level spell) with some others.

*1/round per level, +4 AC, +1 attack, perhaps speed x2 (don't know for now)
The attack is pretty useless for a wizard, cause he will miss most of the time. The hypothetical extra speed may be more usefull, as is the AC boost, but the duration of the spell...well

*Mage armor wizard/sorc1
1hour per level, +4 AC.

*Shield wizard/sorc1
1minute/level +7 AC, + save bonus

*fly wizard/sorc 3
10 minutes/level, speed x3 (or more for halfling), surest way to escape melee attack

*Blink wizard/sorc 3
1round level, 50% miss chance, allow to pass wall or closen door, negate dex bonus to ennemy AC, half damage from corporeal source, allow to strike ethereal creature...

Haste was a useful spell, with a drawback : the more you cast spell per round, the more you lose spells. A fighter has an infinite amount of attack, you don't. Now haste is useless for a third level spell if you compare it with Fly, Blink, Mage armor or Shield. The right solution would have been to give an extra move, plus it would have been far more consistant with the spell's name. Now, just call it frenzy.

You're forgetting that Haste's bonus to AC is a haste bonus and stacks with Mage Armor and Shield. But the argument seems weak. It's a powerful spell. It's just no longer powerful for a wizard. That suits me fine. Wizards are powerful enough as is.