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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8246946" data-attributes="member: 87792">And to me this is basically it. That one key part (not the only part) of immersion is when you've mastered the rules to a sufficient degree that they get out of the way. What the rules are does matter - but for the purposes of immersion they matter because some are easier to master than others and that familiarity is a vast help. There are other things the rules do, of course, including setting the tone.And for all the comments on disassociated mechanics the fundamental problem was unfamiliarity and an unwillingness or inability to adapt. I've no real problem with this; there are lots of games I can't be bothered to learn. (I did and do have a huge issue with the edition war and the need people felt to burn 4e to the ground).What I found 4e gave me was an actor stance that was similar to [USER=75787]@GrahamWills[/USER] <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/that-thread-in-which-we-ruminate-on-the-confluence-of-actor-stance-immersion-and-playing-as-if-i-was-my-character.679354/post-8244361" target="_blank">example of And Then There Were None above</a>. Someone looking at the environment and using options they knew how to use to make sure things work out and fill gaps with fewer options as I get tired. &quot;I hit him&quot; doesn't cut it (or rather it's for a limited number of fighting styles, most covered by the barbarian).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8246946, member: 87792"] And to me this is basically it. That one key part (not the only part) of immersion is when you've mastered the rules to a sufficient degree that they get out of the way. What the rules are does matter - but for the purposes of immersion they matter because some are easier to master than others and that familiarity is a vast help. There are other things the rules do, of course, including setting the tone. And for all the comments on disassociated mechanics the fundamental problem was unfamiliarity and an unwillingness or inability to adapt. I've no real problem with this; there are lots of games I can't be bothered to learn. (I did and do have a huge issue with the edition war and the need people felt to burn 4e to the ground). What I found 4e gave me was an actor stance that was similar to [USER=75787]@GrahamWills[/USER] [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/that-thread-in-which-we-ruminate-on-the-confluence-of-actor-stance-immersion-and-playing-as-if-i-was-my-character.679354/post-8244361']example of And Then There Were None above[/URL]. Someone looking at the environment and using options they knew how to use to make sure things work out and fill gaps with fewer options as I get tired. "I hit him" doesn't cut it (or rather it's for a limited number of fighting styles, most covered by the barbarian). [/QUOTE]

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