The 14th level PCs have slain their thousands, the 18th level PCs their ten thousands

[Jdvn1]

I'd love to run a campaign from scratch and keep track of exactly how many creatures the PCs kill.

On average, doesn't it take 13.3 creatures of equal-CR to gain a level?

Then, assuming you average equal-CR creatures (roughly same above-level and below-level), then I'd guess the number of creatures the PC killed would average to:
(current level - starting level)*13.3

 

[catsclaw227]

But...maybe we can use this for starters ?
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=192739

This list has some excellent ideas for high-level tactics that your players may use, but the trick is to determine how to build a campaign to challenge them without nerfing them.

I agree that the High Level Campaign guide would be helpful, though I would suggest two smaller PDFs, one for GMs and another for Players.

I am curious how those of you that run high-level games handle some of the power options listed in the thread link above.

CC

 

[Aust Diamondew]

The standard D&D paradigm of PCs acquiring ever-increasing levels of competence also might not suit all DMs, and an explicit breakdown of what the PCs are expected to be able to do would allow DMs to decide on their individual "sweet spots" where they can end or drag out their campaigns.

What do you think?

DMs should definitley recognize what kind of power they want their PCs to have and cap the level appropriately (see this article http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html) if at all and either end the game at that level or use something like the 6th level epic rules that were posted a while ago on these boards.
Of course the DM should also let his players know what he intends to do ahead of time, no one wants to join a game plan to enter PRC X and then find out he'll never even advance high enough level to 8 sessions later.

 

[S'mon]

In my 1e high school campaign I did track kills, and the PCs did kill many thousands (mostly orcs & such) while in the 3rd-8th level range. 3e really discourages this though, no more 30-300 orcs as a standard wilderness encounter, instead it's 'no more than 12 opponents per fight', and I've had to pretty much handwave it when the 12th level PCs attack the goblin army.

 

[Stalker0]

I think the CR provides a decent guideline in this regard. The main thing to note is especially at higher levels, once you involve monsters that are a CR 4 less than the party's level, they may be completely and utterly ineffective against the party. You could literally throw a near infinite numbers of these encounters and the party could go through them with ease.

I find at high levels the sweet spot is 2-4 monsters, each a CR > party's level -3. More weaker monsters doesn't harm the party, and a single monster is often too easily stopped by a single good spell.

 

[JRR_Talking]

I tend to do that, although they tend to be 3rd-5th level commoners with average to sub-average attributes and no combat skills to speak of. Still, I'm not adverse to the notion of a whole army of 3rd level fighters, albiet again with near average attributes.

This practice came about from the proposition that training and practice ought to be worth something in terms of experience. I started with the proposition that an adult might earn 1 xp per day on average, and might work 300 days a year. In ten years, you'd have 3000 xp. In 20 years, 6000 xp and so forth.

I agree with nthese points. In our campaign when we where planning the land we worked on some of these principals. It is a dangerou sworld out there even with no rampaging beasties. Anyone who has surved to the age of 45 in a semi-hostile environment is going to be pushing 5-7th level commoner/expert. He will have survived many harsh winters, a wolf winter every decade, the odd bear, many cut-throats, bandits, several goblins, the odd orc.

 

[Quartz]

and I've had to pretty much handwave it when the 12th level PCs attack the goblin army.

The mob template is your friend.

 

[S'mon]

The mob template is your friend.

PCs don't actually land in the middle of the goblin army; they fly over it unloading area-effect spells, firing bows with ever-full quivers, and such.

 

[jasin]

So I guess, in a rather round-about way, what I'm wondering about is this: should the game be more explicit about what PCs at each range of levels are likely to be able to do? Should certain types of challenges have a "trivially easy to overcome by a party of level X (or a level X [class])", e.g. once you have a 5th level cleric in a standard four-person party, starvation is almost never a problem.

That's a pretty good idea.

It needn't really be formalized, but some sort of discussion where the books gives a couple of level ranges and gives you a general idea what the PCs are like would be nice to have in the DMG (or even the PHB). Preferably referencing mythology and fiction, at least in a general way; for me, many of D&D's quirks are much easier to accept if I can think of it "hey, that's kind of what [character] does in [story..."

 

[jasin]

I think the CR provides a decent guideline in this regard.

That's true of monsters (and traps, which also have CRs), but the real problem IME is with more general situations, and the mismatch between player/DM expectations and how the game actually plays.

For example, crafting a classic Agatha Christie style murder mystery at 9th-level doesn't work, since all you need to do is commune through the dozen or so suspects to find out who did it.

That's not to say you can't have a murder mystery at 9th, but to be playable, it will have to take this kind of stuff into account. For example, knowing who did it doesn't help, since the murderer's word is better than the PCs' in the community (and the authorities don't have access to commune of their own), so you need to find physical evidence. Or the murderer isn't one of the people gathered in the Accusing Lounge, or he's on the run and the myster is about finding where he is rather than who he is.

Having this sort of thing discussed in the DMG would save grief for many a DM.