MeepoTheMighty
First Post
Demogorgon said:
As long as you'll be posting here, oh mighty Demogorgon, I made you an icon. Please don't eat my soul.
The Abyss: Infinite or 666 layers?
- Thread starter King_Stannis
- Start date
As long as you'll be posting here, oh mighty Demogorgon, I made you an icon. Please don't eat my soul.
Lordnightshade
First Post
Despite what you all may think, the word Abyss as defined by the Merriam-Webster's dictionary is infinate:
Also all the sources I have found from D&D 2e, and 3e refer to the abyss as being infinite.
Planewalker.com refers to it as being infinite.
Themimir.net refers to it as being infinite.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7117/planes/abyss/abyss1.html
Describes 684 layers of the abyss.
The 3e Manual of the Planes refers to it as being infinite.
And I am sure there are many other sources, including those that have nothing to do with D&D that refer to it as being infinite.
The only place that I could find that lists it as having 666 layers is the 1e Diety’s and Demigods (which I have) But that goes against every other published source and it goes against the very definition of the word Abyss. Maybe EGG will pipe in here and talk about why the 1e Abyss only had 666 layers according to James Ward and Rob Kuntz.
I mean what does the Mark of the Beast have to do with D&D? D&D doesn’t include the Christian mythology the last time I checked?
Anyway, I guess if you are the DM you are in charge of creating your own multiverse, and your version of the Abyss could just as easily have 216 layers as it could 666.
What I want to know is why people have such a problem with the idea of the Abyss being infinite?
Also all the sources I have found from D&D 2e, and 3e refer to the abyss as being infinite.
Planewalker.com refers to it as being infinite.
Themimir.net refers to it as being infinite.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7117/planes/abyss/abyss1.html
Describes 684 layers of the abyss.
The 3e Manual of the Planes refers to it as being infinite.
And I am sure there are many other sources, including those that have nothing to do with D&D that refer to it as being infinite.
The only place that I could find that lists it as having 666 layers is the 1e Diety’s and Demigods (which I have) But that goes against every other published source and it goes against the very definition of the word Abyss. Maybe EGG will pipe in here and talk about why the 1e Abyss only had 666 layers according to James Ward and Rob Kuntz.
I mean what does the Mark of the Beast have to do with D&D? D&D doesn’t include the Christian mythology the last time I checked?
Anyway, I guess if you are the DM you are in charge of creating your own multiverse, and your version of the Abyss could just as easily have 216 layers as it could 666.
What I want to know is why people have such a problem with the idea of the Abyss being infinite?
Aaron L
Hero
Because if Chaotic Evil is infinite, but Lawful Good is only 7 layers deep and Lawful Evil is only 9, then that doesn't bode well for the other alignments.
People want symmetry, and a reason Chaotic Evil isn't the most powerful force in all the multiverse and demons don't rule everything.
People want symmetry, and a reason Chaotic Evil isn't the most powerful force in all the multiverse and demons don't rule everything.
zoroaster100
First Post
What about Limbo?
Is Limbo, the plane of ultimate Chaos, also infinite in its number of layers? I never understood why Limbo should be any less chaotic than the Abyss, or why slaad's all seem to come in more or less froglike forms while demons are so varied in form. Are slaadi less chaotic than demons? I think Chaotic Neutral got the shaft!
Is Limbo, the plane of ultimate Chaos, also infinite in its number of layers? I never understood why Limbo should be any less chaotic than the Abyss, or why slaad's all seem to come in more or less froglike forms while demons are so varied in form. Are slaadi less chaotic than demons? I think Chaotic Neutral got the shaft!
Kobold Avenger
Legend
According to Planescape sources, the number of layers of the Abyss were determined by the Fraternity of Order (better known as the Guvners). As they are the Faction obsessed with law, one of the projects they've been working on is counting the number of layers the Abyss has.
Their methods of counting the layers involves having people go down to the Abyss (whether it be their members or adventurers) and reporting back to them about the layers of the Abyss they visited. Then the records are checked, and if it's something that's apparently new, well there's another layer of the Abyss accordingly to the Guvners.
Their methods of counting the layers involves having people go down to the Abyss (whether it be their members or adventurers) and reporting back to them about the layers of the Abyss they visited. Then the records are checked, and if it's something that's apparently new, well there's another layer of the Abyss accordingly to the Guvners.
Dr. Zauberei
First Post
I think some of you guys are missing something important . . .
If each layer of the Abyss is infinite in size, what does it matter if the number of layers themselves are infinite? Does having a limited number of layers mean there is less Abyss?
Also, while Bytopia may only have two layers, and the Abyss has either an infinite number or 666 layers, which plane is bigger? They are both infinite in size?!?!
The jist I got from Planescape (which I loved) is that every single plane, every layer of every plane, and every locale on every layer of every plane is full of impossible possibilities. It seemed that the multiverse itself was so huge and infinite that the concept of the Great Wheel and the accepted cosmology of the planes was just an arbitrary system imposed by the gods and planar society.
A plane is divided into layers, but each layer is infinite, each layer is separate from, yet a part of, the other layers, and you can seemlessly travel from one layer to another (even from one plane to another) without even noticing! The distinction between layers and planes seemed both at once meaningless and oh so important.
It may be a hard concept to grasp, but that idea is what made the Planescape setting so cool for me.
Oh, and to get a bit back on topic. For the Abyss specifically, I believe the Planescape setting described the infinite vs. finite layers problem as an unknown. I know I remember reading somewhere that some planar scholars claimed infinite layers, and others claimed finite layers (but of course, each "finite" scholar had a different number!) No one truly knows if the Abyss is infinite in layers or not, and the known layers keep shifting around with some layers dissappearing and others forming . . . CHAOS!!! I like that.
If each layer of the Abyss is infinite in size, what does it matter if the number of layers themselves are infinite? Does having a limited number of layers mean there is less Abyss?
Also, while Bytopia may only have two layers, and the Abyss has either an infinite number or 666 layers, which plane is bigger? They are both infinite in size?!?!
The jist I got from Planescape (which I loved) is that every single plane, every layer of every plane, and every locale on every layer of every plane is full of impossible possibilities. It seemed that the multiverse itself was so huge and infinite that the concept of the Great Wheel and the accepted cosmology of the planes was just an arbitrary system imposed by the gods and planar society.
A plane is divided into layers, but each layer is infinite, each layer is separate from, yet a part of, the other layers, and you can seemlessly travel from one layer to another (even from one plane to another) without even noticing! The distinction between layers and planes seemed both at once meaningless and oh so important.
It may be a hard concept to grasp, but that idea is what made the Planescape setting so cool for me.
Oh, and to get a bit back on topic. For the Abyss specifically, I believe the Planescape setting described the infinite vs. finite layers problem as an unknown. I know I remember reading somewhere that some planar scholars claimed infinite layers, and others claimed finite layers (but of course, each "finite" scholar had a different number!) No one truly knows if the Abyss is infinite in layers or not, and the known layers keep shifting around with some layers dissappearing and others forming . . . CHAOS!!! I like that.
Sejs
First Post
I'm kinda with Dr. Z on this one. A layer isn't X miles by Y miles by Z miles, it's an entire sub-reality. Think of Earth. All of Earth. The whole shabang. Every continent, hemisphere, country, city, county, family, town, provence, religeon, climate, ecosystem.. EVERYTHING.
Now think to yourself.. that's one layer.
Now -try- to grasp the concept of twice the ammount of variety, peoples, animals, plants, minerals, formations, cultures, etc, etc. No no, I'm serious, go on and try. REALLY try. Got a good grasp of it yet?
Good. Now multiply that by SEVERAL HUNDRED TIMES. Kinda hard to do, isn't? The picture gets too big, refrence slips away and your brain tries to rationalize it down to a small, simpler form. The paradigm breaks down.
Saying the Abyss has 666 layers, or Infinate layers, in my oppinion at least, are effectivly saying the same thing. The Abyss is Sufficiently Large, such that we can't comprehend just how big it really is. Trying to categorize it down to an X or a Y is just a coping mechanism people come up with. Which, really is also pretty darn fitting with it's chaotic nature.
Now think to yourself.. that's one layer.
Now -try- to grasp the concept of twice the ammount of variety, peoples, animals, plants, minerals, formations, cultures, etc, etc. No no, I'm serious, go on and try. REALLY try. Got a good grasp of it yet?
Good. Now multiply that by SEVERAL HUNDRED TIMES. Kinda hard to do, isn't? The picture gets too big, refrence slips away and your brain tries to rationalize it down to a small, simpler form. The paradigm breaks down.
Saying the Abyss has 666 layers, or Infinate layers, in my oppinion at least, are effectivly saying the same thing. The Abyss is Sufficiently Large, such that we can't comprehend just how big it really is. Trying to categorize it down to an X or a Y is just a coping mechanism people come up with. Which, really is also pretty darn fitting with it's chaotic nature.
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