I don't really understand how this addresses the bit you quoted. Isn't 'adventure', for some value of that idea, the main design thrust of most RPG settings and world building?
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The Art and Science of Worldbuilding For Gameplay [+]
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Not at all, me and OP actually are saying the same thing.
Hes emphasizing the angle that Players can't violate the Don't Be a Smartass rule and can't just will adventure breaking things into existence because they made the math rocks go click-clack.
Im emphasizing the angle that such things can be introduced within reason, and that there's no need to build changes on the fly if they can't pass whatever check. And I emphasize this in the context that the stated example is just too goddamn inconsequential to be a stickler over it.
If the example was, as I alluded to, about willing into existence magical Wish-granting berries that grow over all the place, that is something Id deny, no question, because of course thats stupid, gamebreaking, and not a serious suggestion.
But even at a less extreme end of things, if the stated example was, lets say, presented narratively in such a way that it logically follows that there is only ever going to be one specific way into the building, then yes, rolling for a secret entrance isn't going to fly.
But that is going to be predicated on the PCs having already gone through the process of learning about this building and how precisely it came to be this way, and ideally this will be in tandem with a bunch of other research and investigations tied to the BBEG or whatever the adventure is about, and even then, those Investigations should still have had a chance to provide another way in.
If one just presents a tower with only one specific way in and denies any chance to engage with it beyond that one way, then thats just bad writing and bad worldbuilding at that.
I don't think Apocalypse World is about adventure. My best Burning Wheel play has not been about adventure.
My personal favourite world-building-for-gameplay exemplar is In A Wicked Age - but it's not about adventure either. It provides us with characters in situations ready to achieve, or fail at achieving, their "best interests".
I wouldn't even really see my Prince Valiant play as about adventure in the manner of typical D&D.
I actually don't understand your view of gameplay, based on many threads we have both participated in, so all I can say is that I think there is a distinction between something simply being true in the fiction and it being a mechanistic limit on the players.
Sorry about that. I misread the comment.
Voadam
Legend
I also like the basic imperial civil war setup of Ptolus where you can have a powerful high magic D&D backdrop world with lots of powerful people and magical resources, but with an imperial succession crisis the armies and high level NPCs are drawn into the crisis leaving lots of areas on their own. So like in a points of light setup when problems arise it mostly falls on the PCs to address the issues.
When I ran the Carrion Crown adventure path this was a great backdrop. The Prince of Ustalav was off fighting in the succession wars and making his imperial claim so when escalating haunted things started up in the village outside of the old burned down prison the only non-PC church clerics left in the area were an old guy in his 70s and preteen altar boys. It was up to the PCs to deal with the problems or they would overwhelm the town.
When I ran the Carrion Crown adventure path this was a great backdrop. The Prince of Ustalav was off fighting in the succession wars and making his imperial claim so when escalating haunted things started up in the village outside of the old burned down prison the only non-PC church clerics left in the area were an old guy in his 70s and preteen altar boys. It was up to the PCs to deal with the problems or they would overwhelm the town.
Then read "adventure" as "the things PCs do in that game." I don't understand why you have to go through the process of pretending to be obtuse just so you can carry on about the kinds of games you like. Just talk about the kind of games you like and how they might need to do world building in a different way in order to support gameplay. That is the subject of the thread.
A limit on the outcome of action declarations can be established by non-mechanical means - eg like we're discussing here, if the GM's notes say no secret way in, then the outcome of the action declaration "I look for a secret way in" is being limited by those notes.
So I would consider that a limit on gameplay. As I posted upthread, it seems that one purpose for world building is to establish these sorts of limits.
So would you say that your Burning Wheel players weren't interested in/playing for adventure? Because we aren't talking about the GMs design agenda here in quite the way you seem to mean. Keep in mind that my 'for some value' addendum is carrying a lot of water here.
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
I'm working on a Starfinder 3PP setting, since I cannot use the Pact Worlds in my products. T. H. Gulliver, author of Dead in Space, anthology of Spelljammer one-shots with horror themes, that I published, created the basics and brief history of a background setting for his one-shots. I've since expanded on it. Earth was homeworld of humanity, until the Earth made itself aware, a living deity, and was demanding an expulsion of humans or face ecological damage. Under the power of MegaCorps, humanity settled the nearest 13 inhabitable worlds, in a region we call Corporate Space. The worker class under many MegaCorp worlds revolted, and began a movement to funding Generational Colony ships to take large populations of the various factions to settle worlds in deeper space beyond, now called Colonial Space. While several of the colonies are advanced, large population centers rivaling the worlds of Corporate Space, most are in various stages of colonial development. Dozens of star systems have been colonized. 20 years ago, an alien species began a war against one of the furthest established colonies. A cry for help alerted the most established colonies to send vessels and military forces to engage with this alien specie incursion. The less established colonies sent troops. The aliens were driven away. Suddenly the united independent colonies decided to form a confederacy for defense and limited government maintaining automy, yet sending representatives to the colonial capital - as many of the colonies were a spectrum of every kind of government. Many alien species are allies and trading partners with the Colonialists.
With that starting point and brief history, my plan is to create Mini-Setting Guides, one star system at a time (with stat block from my The Planet Builder supplement). The stat block covers the system star in detail, along with every planet in order from star outward, each planet's moons, asteroid belts to the kuiper belt. The major, most inhabitable or other notable planets or moons of the system get a planetary map. If settled, it includes a city map (or mine operation, etc.). Then 2 or 3 major locations at encounter scale, usually one as more wilderness region. I would include any unique equipment, vehicles, star ships, military forces, pirates, factions, and monsters unique to the area. A colony's history, current governments, alliances, hostilities, in some cases religions are included with each mini-guide. Currently working on the Colonial Space version and update to Starfinder, my Kaidan setting of Japanese Horror.
There's no implied adventure. There are locations that could fit a potential adventure provided, but simply as suggestions - up to the GM on how best to use the content. At least this is my planned creation of my Starfinder setting series. (Apologies, for the 'too much information', but I find it easier to explain how I do things, by how I'm actually doing it now...)
With that starting point and brief history, my plan is to create Mini-Setting Guides, one star system at a time (with stat block from my The Planet Builder supplement). The stat block covers the system star in detail, along with every planet in order from star outward, each planet's moons, asteroid belts to the kuiper belt. The major, most inhabitable or other notable planets or moons of the system get a planetary map. If settled, it includes a city map (or mine operation, etc.). Then 2 or 3 major locations at encounter scale, usually one as more wilderness region. I would include any unique equipment, vehicles, star ships, military forces, pirates, factions, and monsters unique to the area. A colony's history, current governments, alliances, hostilities, in some cases religions are included with each mini-guide. Currently working on the Colonial Space version and update to Starfinder, my Kaidan setting of Japanese Horror.
There's no implied adventure. There are locations that could fit a potential adventure provided, but simply as suggestions - up to the GM on how best to use the content. At least this is my planned creation of my Starfinder setting series. (Apologies, for the 'too much information', but I find it easier to explain how I do things, by how I'm actually doing it now...)
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My most recent BW play has been two players, co-GMed. The characters goals pertain predominantly to revenge (in one case) and acquiring wealth to buy a ship (in the other case). The action of the game has focused primarily on small scale robbery, exploiting opportunities that present themselves to vagrants living on the docks.
I don't really see this as adventure.
