The Avengers (SPOILERS BEWARE0

[jonesy]

Funny thing about Pym is that his one Ike Turner moment was more unforgivable in the eyes of fans than blatant acts of murder by other Marvel heroes. I mean, Namor once flew to the top of the Statue of Liberty and tossed tourists to their deaths.

Of course it was more unforgivable. It was detailed, it was disturbing, it was pages upon pages. The Namor incident was so glossed over it's amazing anyone even remembers it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Wasn't Namor at war with the surface world at that point?

(Not justification, context.)

 

[billd91]

Wasn't Namor at war with the surface world at that point?

(Not justification, context.)

He was. And I saw that in comics from the 1940s. Did he do the same when he was rediscovered in the FF comics in the 1960s?

Given the culture of the 1940s as shown in pop culture from movies to the comics, is anybody really surprised that a version of Captain America separated from that time might be a bit of a bonebreaking, thinks-with-his-fists kind of guy as written in the Ultimates? The Cap from the main continuity is filtered through the 1960s civil rights and Vietnam war and protests era. He's no longer the kind of guy who we'd likely get thawing out a super-soldier frozen in the last days of WWII. And I really enjoyed that contrast while the Ultimates ran.

 

[fanboy2000]

Wasn't Namor at war with the surface world at that point?\

He was. And I saw that in comics from the 1940s. Did he do the same when he was rediscovered in the FF comics in the 1960s?

Yep. Since the '60s, Namor's waffled on the whole good guy thing. He waffled in the '40s too. His feature was after the Human Torch's in the original Marvel Comics title. It's an interesting contrast.

 

[Felon]

He was. And I saw that in comics from the 1940s. Did he do the same when he was rediscovered in the FF comics in the 1960s?

Well, he rampaged quite a bit. Led his forces against the surface. Teamed up with Dr. Doom and the Hulk. No blatant loss of life in the Comics Code days, but he probably doled out a few black eyes at the very least. Many heroes have gone through a dark phase or two. But the context of domestic abuse seems far more horrible than all of the brutality other characters have had to redeem themselves for.

Given the culture of the 1940s as shown in pop culture from movies to the comics, is anybody really surprised that a version of Captain America separated from that time might be a bit of a bonebreaking, thinks-with-his-fists kind of guy as written in the Ultimates?

I wouldn't say the Millar version of Cap was simply an old-school John-Wayne man's-man type. I'd be fine with that. When I say "bone-breaking", we're not just talking knocking some teeth out. He went to a more extreme level of steel-toed-boot-through-the-face viciousness, as Millar characters are wont to do. Granted, he's no Midgnighter, but still....

Likewise, a Hulk that actually kills people when he goes on a rampage makes for an interesting modern take, but that's not quite shocking enough, so he eats people. I've enjoyed some of Millar's stuff (Authority, Wanted, Kick-Ass), but it seems safe to say that cynicism, cruelty, and anger are emotions that permeate everything he writes. I don't think I've ever seen a moment of pure, untainted compassion or kindness in any of his works. Admittedly, there's likely plenty I haven't read. Maybe when I get a chance to check out "Superman: Red Son" I'll see a change of tone.

To my way of thinking, a Cap that's just an inhumane thug that doesn't think twice about shattering and mangling his opponents like Jason Voorhees..well, which of Cap's qualities does that leave to admire? There's no shortage of vicious, take-no-crap tough guys in comics.

 

[renau1g]

To my way of thinking, a Cap that's just an inhumane thug that doesn't think twice about crippling or killing...well, which of Cap's qualities does that leave to admire? There's no shortage of mean, take-no-crap tough guys in comics.

I love Cap, I love his idealism, I am a bit tired of the mean, tough guy bull, and I think that's a reason why Avengers did well, it was fun, it had heroes being....well heroes.

I still remember the Amalgam crossover from the 90's. Captain America and Batman stopping the big cosmic entities from destroying one another.

"They see....A child witnessing his parents gunned down...swearing vengeance... unselfishly devoting his life to those who cannot protect themselves...From the nothingness of a blighted soul, he fashioned a dark guardian and joined others in battle"

"They see...a young man with willing spirit and weak flesh, subjecting himself to experiments so he can fight a great evil...a man whose battle carries him across decades to a harsh, cynical world that needed him even more, and was even less willing to admit it...."

That last part about Captain America was one that always stuck with me, not sure why, I wasn't crazy about the character before.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The Vision serves well as that "outsider-looking-in" archetype that Whedon likes to insert when an ensemble cast starts to get big. I'm thinking along the lines of River, Anya, Connor, and (especially) Illyria (who has Fred's brain patterns tucked away). When you have a bunch of people being all snarky and heavy on the pop-culture references, it's fun to have a foil in the form of someone who doesn't have a proper handle on snark and pop culture.

I think that they have probably been using Captain America for that archetype - there are several places in Avengers where he doesn't get the pop culture reference as a reminder to us that he was from the 1940's. "smart as Stephen Hawking" was one that springs to mind.

Not to say they couldn't drive it further with someone like the vision, of course.

 

[Felon]

I think that they have probably been using Captain America for that archetype - there are several places in Avengers where he doesn't get the pop culture reference as a reminder to us that he was from the 1940's. "smart as Stephen Hawking" was one that springs to mind.

Not to say they couldn't drive it further with someone like the vision, of course.

That's a good observation. Cap has a handful of blonde moments in the movie. I think for him to become the character he's meant to be, that's going to fall to the wayside by the time Avengers 2 comes out.

Kind of concerned that the problem with the next movie will be that they've worked passed the problems that made the first movie fun. Some of the real stand-out moments are the squabbles and brawls between the different heroes. It's the basic conundrum of sequels. In the first movie, protagonists go through a catharsis where they work through their issues. In the sequel, they either regress and start acting like jackasses again (Iron Man 2 springs to mind) as if their previous catharsis didn't take, or they're fine and they have nothing internal to push against. A more in-touch Cap makes sense in a sequel, but comes at the expense of those moments of humor.

 

[Nellisir]

Saw it again last night. I have to say, one of my favorite moments is when the Widow is recovering from evading the Hulk. She's clearly not calm and in control. She just trying to recover and not be totally, absolutely terrified.

I feel like the movie gives a really appropriate sense of how powerful and dangerous the Hulk is, and that's pretty cool.

 

[Plane Sailing]

It's the basic conundrum of sequels. In the first movie, protagonists go through a catharsis where they work through their issues. In the sequel, they either regress and start acting like jackasses again (Iron Man 2 springs to mind) as if their previous catharsis didn't take

I really, really hate it when heroes are hit by the stupid stick in a sequel. I don't know whether it is because studios want to slavishly follow the same 'formula' which worked in the first one, or writers just find it really hard to write something that can build upon the first without undoing the things that have been learned (or something else).

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed, but I fear it is going to be the filmic equivalent of the 'difficult second album'