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The Blood War in 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="FourthBear" data-source="post: 4002222" data-attributes="member: 55846"><p>There's no need to bring the proposed beliefs of the designers into this. I have been a player and DM since before the publication of the first Monster Manual. I am quite familiar with the portrayal of the fiends in all editions of the game to date. As I stated before, these changes increase and make more clear the distinguishing characteristics of demons and devils. I did not claim that they previously had *no* points that distinguished them previously. </p><p></p><p>In their portayals and actions in published D&D campaigns and adventures, I do not believe there has been a consistent and clear difference between the two groups of fiends. Demon lords such as Graz'zt were often portrayed as behaving functionally identically to devils such as Mephistopholes, both in appearance and actions. We were told the Nalfeshnee were a group of demons that acted as cruel judges, surely more associated with lawful behavior (later even explained in Planescape with a rather lame fig leaf, IMO). Glabrezu were noted as clear tempters, complete with complicated contracts and rules. The devils were frequently portrayed as betraying each other so frequently and consistently that their supposed devotion to Law was little more than a joke. Succubi and erinyes were so infamously similar that writers frequently wrote erinyes as succubi with an LE tag. While I have no problems with fiends not obeying stereotypes, there was no sense that these were a subversion of their supposedly central Chaotic and Lawful natures. In appearance, there was so little difference or organization in visuals that I would defy anyone without prior D&D experience to be able to identify a selection of devils from demons without coaching. </p><p></p><p>Was this how they were always written? No, but certainly enough so that I felt that if the writers could not consistently keep the two sets of fiends straight, there could be definite improvements made. Certainly in the absence of the alignment wheel, I support a more definite niche for each beside LE fiend and CE fiend.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FourthBear, post: 4002222, member: 55846"] There's no need to bring the proposed beliefs of the designers into this. I have been a player and DM since before the publication of the first Monster Manual. I am quite familiar with the portrayal of the fiends in all editions of the game to date. As I stated before, these changes increase and make more clear the distinguishing characteristics of demons and devils. I did not claim that they previously had *no* points that distinguished them previously. In their portayals and actions in published D&D campaigns and adventures, I do not believe there has been a consistent and clear difference between the two groups of fiends. Demon lords such as Graz'zt were often portrayed as behaving functionally identically to devils such as Mephistopholes, both in appearance and actions. We were told the Nalfeshnee were a group of demons that acted as cruel judges, surely more associated with lawful behavior (later even explained in Planescape with a rather lame fig leaf, IMO). Glabrezu were noted as clear tempters, complete with complicated contracts and rules. The devils were frequently portrayed as betraying each other so frequently and consistently that their supposed devotion to Law was little more than a joke. Succubi and erinyes were so infamously similar that writers frequently wrote erinyes as succubi with an LE tag. While I have no problems with fiends not obeying stereotypes, there was no sense that these were a subversion of their supposedly central Chaotic and Lawful natures. In appearance, there was so little difference or organization in visuals that I would defy anyone without prior D&D experience to be able to identify a selection of devils from demons without coaching. Was this how they were always written? No, but certainly enough so that I felt that if the writers could not consistently keep the two sets of fiends straight, there could be definite improvements made. Certainly in the absence of the alignment wheel, I support a more definite niche for each beside LE fiend and CE fiend. [/QUOTE]
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