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Message: <blockquote data-quote="D_E" data-source="post: 4005924" data-attributes="member: 49225">I agree with a lot of what you say, but I have some key differences, too.  For that reason, I'm just going to run along side you and diverge where we have differences.All Great Wheel Outer Planes have an alignment element in them.  The Abyss does, and being LG in the Abyss poses some serious problems.  Being LE or CG in the Abyss poses many of the same problems.  Being NE or CN in the Abyss can be done.  Being C(N)E or CE(N) can be done easilly.The majority of the denizens of a CE plane are chaotic evil.  All Demons are CE, unless they are paritally risen or some such.  Demons may rise or become orderly.  Not all denizens of the Abyss are Demons.  Most of these other denizens are mortals that have settled in the Abyss for one reason or another (mortals includes Aberitions and such), but may also include displaced outsider races.  Many outsiders can replicate themselves through means other than spontaneous generation from their home plane.  Such infestations represent a departure from the natural order, but that is different than saying it can't happen.  Such pockets of other alignments give you grist for more types of adventures than you'd have if each plane was all one alignment.  Specifically, what you've got is the opportunity to look at how different groups interact with your dominant algnment in microcosm.  An Elven setlement in the Abyss may therefore be a normal Elven setlment, a haven for chaotic good at war with its surroundings; or it may follow the dominant CE alignment in a way that may not be immediatly aparent.  The PCs will not know which it is when they first come across the setlement.If the inhabitants of a particular plane are overwhelmingly a given alignment, then, that does present a plane where particular behaviors are going to be prevalent.  A LN plane is going to be ordered and structured - Mechanus makes a pretty good presentation of such.  But, you can't have beings who are spawned from a CE plane suddenly acting LE just because.  That defeats the whole purpose of having aligned planes.  You can, however, have beings spawned from a CE plane organize and become LE or NE due to events in the world, possibly the efforts of the PCs.  Such events are part of the war between alignments that is central to the Great Wheel.So, if we're going to have demons that are deep planners, and devils that are bent on destruction, then chuck the alignment planes and go from there.  But one should be careful that the Planes don't turn into another version of the Material Plane, just with a higher special effects buget. As far as I can tell, we aren't.  So far, the closest we've got are the 'loths, which are said to be somewhat more organized than normal for demons.  It actually looks to me like they've set their new cosmology up with a Chaotic place "below" the material plane, in the Elemental Chaos, and a Law place "above" with the Astral Sea.  I'm curious to see if this is true or not.That being said, I'm not arguing that the Great Wheel is supperior to the 4th ed settup.  I'm just arguing that it isn't worse.</blockquote>

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