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The Blood War in 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="Geron Raveneye" data-source="post: 4008264" data-attributes="member: 2268"><p>It's pretty interesting to see the views held by many about Law and Chaos, and their extraplanar expressions in Demons and Devils. To be honest, sometimes I get the impression that the predominant view is that Demons should be raving, uncoherent machines of violent destruction while Devils should be utterly pedantic schemers and "rules lawyers". <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" /> </p><p></p><p>On a more "cosmis" scale, Law promotes order, creates structure, and tries to maintain it, employs clear hierarchies of rules and organizes its allies into rank and file following a delineated set of regulations. In turn, Chaos promotes disorder, destroys structure, creates dissent and confusion, and the only way its ranks of allies are "ordered" is by each and every single one of them clawing its way to its position in any way possible. The Evil part for both Demons and Devils only means that both sides do this for utterly self-serving reasons, completely disregarding (and often enjoying) the pain and despair they cause others while increasing their own personal power.</p><p></p><p>The fact is that both Demon and Devil could use the same tool to reach their goals. Take seduction. Seduction can be used to bind someone into a contact, as a matter of payment for services rendered. On the other hand, it can be used to seduce someone away from his socially accepted relationship, destroy his moral anchors, and drive him towards destructive behaviour. One is Lawful, the other Chaotic.</p><p></p><p>Or legislation. Why should only a Devil dabble in the legislative processes of a city-state, for example? A Demon, getting laws passed that slowly drive the city into chaos and confusion, resulting in upheavals, bloody civil war in the street and the destruction of that piece of civilization, all the while garnering the power of individuals or small cults worshipping him for the promise of greater personal power through destruction. There's even a BECMI adventure from way back that had such a scenario, X3: Curse of Xanathon.</p><p></p><p>Both sides can have networks of spies. Devils will employ an organization with rules and clear hierarchies. Demons will have a vast group of individuals, each with different abilities but all suited towards spywork, and a "hierarchy" based on the personal power of each individual member and its ability to use that power over the rest. The same way, both can have cities under their control. For a Demon, it must be especially ironic to subvert the usually lawful concept of a city and simply let the chaotic tendencies such a construct can have rampart.</p><p></p><p>And in the end, both sides can have plans for long-term goal, in their own way. Devils probably employ flow charts, long lists of conditions met, meticulously worked steps and alternatives to be employed in case of any step going wrong, files holding information about all major and minor targets, their habits, most probable reactions, etc. Demons don't sweat the details, they improvise. All the time. They set a goal (which mostly includes destruction, disorder and dissention in concert with increasing their personal power), then they start by tugging a particularly effective thread, and simply take it from there as it comes. Since Demons are incredibly apt at navigating the maze of chaotic events, improvisation and convoluted schemes, they don't need the whole ordering and sorting and filing and charting, they simply dive right in and still are on top of events most of the time, manipulating a millioin possible outcomes out of instinct.</p><p></p><p>Or, to take the comparison from earlier in the thread...while you will find an infinite number of charts, file folders, sorted notes and alternative plans written out in detail in Mephistopheles' "secret planning chamber", you won't find any of that in Graz'zt rooms. Actually, he won't even HAVE such a thing. He's doing it all off the cuff, in his head, and on the spot, adapting and improvising as necessary to reach his final goal, while Mephistopheles will conjure up a note, or a folder, crossing out an option he had planned for decades ago, and filing it away again. And while Graz'zt is planning the fall of a great city state that is riddled with a growing number of small, unconnected death cults to him, Mephistopheles has managed to subvert another senator in the same city to suggest a law that will lead to a police state and the corruption of the ruling class, leading to an iron-handed tyranny of fear.</p><p></p><p>I can see how it can be that much of a problem to differentiate between Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil outsiders for those who just started on D&D, an those who simply haven't given the whole thing more interest than is needed for using either as high-level dungeon fodder. But it really surprises me that it is a problem of such magnitude.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Geron Raveneye, post: 4008264, member: 2268"] It's pretty interesting to see the views held by many about Law and Chaos, and their extraplanar expressions in Demons and Devils. To be honest, sometimes I get the impression that the predominant view is that Demons should be raving, uncoherent machines of violent destruction while Devils should be utterly pedantic schemers and "rules lawyers". :confused: On a more "cosmis" scale, Law promotes order, creates structure, and tries to maintain it, employs clear hierarchies of rules and organizes its allies into rank and file following a delineated set of regulations. In turn, Chaos promotes disorder, destroys structure, creates dissent and confusion, and the only way its ranks of allies are "ordered" is by each and every single one of them clawing its way to its position in any way possible. The Evil part for both Demons and Devils only means that both sides do this for utterly self-serving reasons, completely disregarding (and often enjoying) the pain and despair they cause others while increasing their own personal power. The fact is that both Demon and Devil could use the same tool to reach their goals. Take seduction. Seduction can be used to bind someone into a contact, as a matter of payment for services rendered. On the other hand, it can be used to seduce someone away from his socially accepted relationship, destroy his moral anchors, and drive him towards destructive behaviour. One is Lawful, the other Chaotic. Or legislation. Why should only a Devil dabble in the legislative processes of a city-state, for example? A Demon, getting laws passed that slowly drive the city into chaos and confusion, resulting in upheavals, bloody civil war in the street and the destruction of that piece of civilization, all the while garnering the power of individuals or small cults worshipping him for the promise of greater personal power through destruction. There's even a BECMI adventure from way back that had such a scenario, X3: Curse of Xanathon. Both sides can have networks of spies. Devils will employ an organization with rules and clear hierarchies. Demons will have a vast group of individuals, each with different abilities but all suited towards spywork, and a "hierarchy" based on the personal power of each individual member and its ability to use that power over the rest. The same way, both can have cities under their control. For a Demon, it must be especially ironic to subvert the usually lawful concept of a city and simply let the chaotic tendencies such a construct can have rampart. And in the end, both sides can have plans for long-term goal, in their own way. Devils probably employ flow charts, long lists of conditions met, meticulously worked steps and alternatives to be employed in case of any step going wrong, files holding information about all major and minor targets, their habits, most probable reactions, etc. Demons don't sweat the details, they improvise. All the time. They set a goal (which mostly includes destruction, disorder and dissention in concert with increasing their personal power), then they start by tugging a particularly effective thread, and simply take it from there as it comes. Since Demons are incredibly apt at navigating the maze of chaotic events, improvisation and convoluted schemes, they don't need the whole ordering and sorting and filing and charting, they simply dive right in and still are on top of events most of the time, manipulating a millioin possible outcomes out of instinct. Or, to take the comparison from earlier in the thread...while you will find an infinite number of charts, file folders, sorted notes and alternative plans written out in detail in Mephistopheles' "secret planning chamber", you won't find any of that in Graz'zt rooms. Actually, he won't even HAVE such a thing. He's doing it all off the cuff, in his head, and on the spot, adapting and improvising as necessary to reach his final goal, while Mephistopheles will conjure up a note, or a folder, crossing out an option he had planned for decades ago, and filing it away again. And while Graz'zt is planning the fall of a great city state that is riddled with a growing number of small, unconnected death cults to him, Mephistopheles has managed to subvert another senator in the same city to suggest a law that will lead to a police state and the corruption of the ruling class, leading to an iron-handed tyranny of fear. I can see how it can be that much of a problem to differentiate between Chaotic Evil and Lawful Evil outsiders for those who just started on D&D, an those who simply haven't given the whole thing more interest than is needed for using either as high-level dungeon fodder. But it really surprises me that it is a problem of such magnitude. [/QUOTE]
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