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The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within
- Thread starter Isida Kep'Tukari
- Start date
herald
First Post
I know that Orcus and some of the others are gods in FR (mentioned in the FR god book), but FR isn't core. According to the core rules, as I said, the devils and demons are not divine beings. Therefore, why would WotC bother wasting time and space to stat them as divine beings when they are not divine at all (in the Core rules)?
This is a very good point. There are some solid differances in Core and FR. I seem to remember in Manual of the Planes words to the affect that if mutiple game worlds are going to be used, a game master would have to make a choice as if the god that shared the same name were infact the same being.
My opinion is that since FR has a totally differant Cosmology that these beings, while alike in many ways are infact differant. FR is supposed to be a much more high magic game world so it would not be unreasonable to ramp up certain NPC's.
IMHO though, that should be done in a FR materials, not BOVD.
This is a very good point. There are some solid differances in Core and FR. I seem to remember in Manual of the Planes words to the affect that if mutiple game worlds are going to be used, a game master would have to make a choice as if the god that shared the same name were infact the same being.
My opinion is that since FR has a totally differant Cosmology that these beings, while alike in many ways are infact differant. FR is supposed to be a much more high magic game world so it would not be unreasonable to ramp up certain NPC's.
IMHO though, that should be done in a FR materials, not BOVD.
Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
I think ol' Fraz-Urb'luu gets the shaft here. He's got 233 hp for Cuthbert's sake! He would wipe the floor with a punk like Orcus or Grazzt. And if he ever finds his staff then there will be no hope for any of us!
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
OUCH! Even from up here in the peanut gallery that one looked like it hurt.RobNJ said:
*throws popcorn and shouts "We're number ONE!"*
Grazzt
Demon Lord
Something else to consider. Everyone (well not everyone) is complaining about the CRs being too low...blah blah blah. Or how Graz'zt can be beaten by a 20th-level or 24th-level or whatever party.
Now, what are the chances your party is ever gonna catch them alone? Sure, one-on-one (party vs. demon prince) might be a slaughter in the party's favor (and depending on the power level, it should be. There is nothing that can't be killed at some point, if it is statted. Make them 90 HD? Big deal. A 120th-level party (which can be done with the ELH) will kill them. "If you stat it, they will kill it." If you want them unkillable, don't stat them.
But, all smart demon princes and devils will NEVER be caught alone. Caught alone? Gate in/summon demons or devils. Teleport away. Send for help. Whatever.
The biggest thing about "Oh we whipped Orcus' ass in no time flat." Good for you. Now, if your DM played him anything like I've seen and read a lot of other DMs playing demon princes, dragons, etc. then he didn't play him to his fullest potential. He played him as just another monster. And that fault lies with the DM, not the designers.
As for the power levels in the BoVD. I see no real issues (to me anyway). I think they scale nicely with the other 3e stuff. They are not as powerful as gods (and they shouldn't be; they aren't gods).
But the bottom line is this. Had WotC made them divine and godly, half the people would've been happy, the other half would've pissed and moaned about rules contradictions between the BoVD, DDG, and DotF. Same thing for the way they did them. Didnt make them divine, so half the people are happy, and half are screaming that they should be divine.
Why not take what was given, use it as a framework, and adjust it as you see fit for your campaign? That is what all the books are for anyway, right? If you dont like something, do your own version or change the existing one until you do like it. And remember, it is a game afterall, so what's the big deal. Screaming about how they should've done that or should've done this, doesn't really matter now. The book is out. Its done. Time to move on.
Now, what are the chances your party is ever gonna catch them alone? Sure, one-on-one (party vs. demon prince) might be a slaughter in the party's favor (and depending on the power level, it should be. There is nothing that can't be killed at some point, if it is statted. Make them 90 HD? Big deal. A 120th-level party (which can be done with the ELH) will kill them. "If you stat it, they will kill it." If you want them unkillable, don't stat them.
But, all smart demon princes and devils will NEVER be caught alone. Caught alone? Gate in/summon demons or devils. Teleport away. Send for help. Whatever.
The biggest thing about "Oh we whipped Orcus' ass in no time flat." Good for you. Now, if your DM played him anything like I've seen and read a lot of other DMs playing demon princes, dragons, etc. then he didn't play him to his fullest potential. He played him as just another monster. And that fault lies with the DM, not the designers.
As for the power levels in the BoVD. I see no real issues (to me anyway). I think they scale nicely with the other 3e stuff. They are not as powerful as gods (and they shouldn't be; they aren't gods).
But the bottom line is this. Had WotC made them divine and godly, half the people would've been happy, the other half would've pissed and moaned about rules contradictions between the BoVD, DDG, and DotF. Same thing for the way they did them. Didnt make them divine, so half the people are happy, and half are screaming that they should be divine.
Why not take what was given, use it as a framework, and adjust it as you see fit for your campaign? That is what all the books are for anyway, right? If you dont like something, do your own version or change the existing one until you do like it. And remember, it is a game afterall, so what's the big deal. Screaming about how they should've done that or should've done this, doesn't really matter now. The book is out. Its done. Time to move on.
IceBear
Explorer
Upper_Krust said:
Just ignorant here (I haven't looked at the d20 CoC rules) but would those divine power entities break the established rules in D&D? Since Monte wrote both the BoVD and d20 CoC, it would seem that it would have made sense for him to use the precedents that these CoC divine beings set for the demon princes, UNLESS, it would contradict some D&D specific rule/guideline.
IceBear
BryonD
Hero
Psion said:
Or that 3 different basic MM dragons should not be MORE powerful than not just " a demon lord", but a long established big boy on the block.
It is not "what I think" to say that Grazz'zt place in the power chain has been long established. A CR24 does not conform to the place in the cosmos that he is supposed to take, when compared to monsters in the ELH.
And please don't tell me what I think, particularly when you have it wrong.
Zelda Themelin
First Post
Upper_Krust said:
I agree. Hehe, it just a while back irrated me to no end how they rated Tharizdun (potential misspelling here, but anyway).
After all he was Greater God back in 1st edition Greyhawk box, yep and I know the reasons, but I don't have to agree on something after-written.
Now, forgive following sarcastic theory:
I personally think part of Graz'zt got shaft is because he is more 'attractive' to human worship, than most demon lords. He is not fungish, slimish, undeadish, idiotic or otherwise disgusting most lower-planar beings of chaotic evil side are described.
And so, to make him 'less cool', he is made less powerful, so 'deceptive and plotting' one would loose to disgusting ones in battle and not only that, he tends to hide behind girls.
And, dadaa, curse of too much darkly coolness done away again.
Remember what happened to certain dark elf.
heheee... I'm getting tired, it feels...
herald
First Post
Grazzt said...
Now, what are the chances your party is ever gonna catch them alone? Sure, one-on-one (party vs. demon prince) might be a slaughter in the party's favor (and depending on the power level, it should be. There is nothing that can't be killed at some point, if it is statted. Make them 90 HD? Big deal. A 120th-level party (which can be done with the ELH) will kill them. "If you stat it, they will kill it." If you want them unkillable, don't stat them.
Isn't that what i just said earlier....?
Man, I feel like I'm invisible some times.
Now, what are the chances your party is ever gonna catch them alone? Sure, one-on-one (party vs. demon prince) might be a slaughter in the party's favor (and depending on the power level, it should be. There is nothing that can't be killed at some point, if it is statted. Make them 90 HD? Big deal. A 120th-level party (which can be done with the ELH) will kill them. "If you stat it, they will kill it." If you want them unkillable, don't stat them.
Isn't that what i just said earlier....?
Man, I feel like I'm invisible some times.
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