The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[The Serge]

Something else to consider. Everyone (well not everyone) is complaining about the CRs being too low...blah blah blah. Or how Graz'zt can be beaten by a 20th-level or 24th-level or whatever party.

Now, what are the chances your party is ever gonna catch them alone? Sure, one-on-one (party vs. demon prince) might be a slaughter in the party's favor (and depending on the power level, it should be. There is nothing that can't be killed at some point, if it is statted. Make them 90 HD? Big deal. A 120th-level party (which can be done with the ELH) will kill them. "If you stat it, they will kill it." If you want them unkillable, don't stat them.

But, all smart demon princes and devils will NEVER be caught alone. Caught alone? Gate in/summon demons or devils. Teleport away. Send for help. Whatever.

The biggest thing about "Oh we whipped Orcus' ass in no time flat." Good for you. Now, if your DM played him anything like I've seen and read a lot of other DMs playing demon princes, dragons, etc. then he didn't play him to his fullest potential. He played him as just another monster. And that fault lies with the DM, not the designers.

This would be an excellent point if one was willing to apply it to every other creature. No one attempts this argument with Dragons, high level constructs, or Solars.

 

[Henry]

I guess we should also ask the Demon Prince in Question:

Oh, great Grazz't, scourge of Orcus and Demogorgon, and great playah of the universe, what do you think of what WotC did to you by making you a pale weenie compared to your mortal foes?

 

[Numion]

What's the deal with Grazz't?

Why's everyone trying to pump up his stats? Wasn't he a six-fingered humanoid, IIRC? Of course he should be afraid to go toe-to-toe with forty tons of great wyrm red dragon!

 

[Claude Raines]

Yet Call of Cthulhu D20 has divine power entities without needing Deities & Demigods or the Epic Level Handbook.

But CoC d20 is a stand alone game. Investigators aren't supposed to be epic levels ever and if they do encounter the gods, it's only so they can go insane and die.

CoC does have deity stats, but they are an abbreviated version of what's in Deities & Demigods. Furthermore, the gods aren't meant to be challenges to the players in any way, shape or form. But since they ARE gods, and are included for completeness, then they were stated as gods. The demon princes and arch-devils are not gods (by 3e canon) and shouldn't be statted as such. If you think these creatures are too weak, fine, but just because another game included diety stats and didn't need Deities & Demigods doesn't mean that accessories to D&D should do the same.

 

[Xarlen]

Y'know, not to hijack the thread, but OTHER Then the demon/devil stats, are there any other comments on the book?

I mean, anything that just says 'Please, coach, lemme in the game! C'mon! Pleasepleaseplease!" Anything that screams gratitust, dumb, or stuck in there just to be there? Anything that seems really inventive and neat?

As for the earlier statement on possession, well, I for one want information on it. I find it a real annoyance that the only creatures that can possess you are Ghosts, and that's it. C'mon, I was lead to believe demons and devils could possess stuff. So I want to know how much of an effect this has on the possessed individual. I want to know how to exercise the demons, what it does stat-wise to the character possessed. How to handle a PC getting possed, etc. I want *info*, dagnabbit.

 

[kenjib]

Demon lords used to be in par with more powerful solars and more powerful than dragons, expect for those like Tiamat and Bahamut. Losing in power to nameless basic monsters, make me doubt whatever their name as lords of hells or abyss is actually viable.

One possible explanation (that has already been mentioned here): If George Bush and Mike Tyson got in a fist fight, who would win? Now as a seperate question, if George Bush and Mike Tyson both wanted each other dead, by any and all means, who would survive?

This would be an excellent point if one was willing to apply it to every other creature. No one attempts this argument with Dragons, high level constructs, or Solars.

Dragons and constructs just don't have the same political power that lords of an entire plane of hell or the abyss do. However, I would argue that a solar advanced to 66 hit dice probably would.

I could see a group of adventurers squaring off against one of the most powerful dragons in the world and then, subsequently, a horrific demon lord. No problem for me.

 

[Xarlen]

I could see a group of adventurers squaring off against one of the most powerful dragons in the world and then, subsequently, a horrific demon lord. No problem for me.

If that were true, then the Demon lords/archdevils should be on par with Solars. Since Solars can no doubt pull the heavenly weight, so too should the fiends, both political and combat wise.

 

[greymarch]

If WOTC had provided only epic level stats for the archfiends, all the low level players would have complained. Instead, WOTC provided regular stats, and now all the Epic level players are complaining (including me.) WOTC should have provided specific stats for regular versions of the archfiends, and epic level (or divine level) stats for the archfiends, then everyone would have been happy.

WOTC does listen to its customers. They provide errata, and new material via their website all the time. For example, I led a charge on the official d20 Star Wars messageboards proclaiming that the dissipate energy feat was over-powered. Just yesterday, WOTC finally admitted that the feat is too powerful, and they are changing it! If we harp on WOTC about the lack of Epic level versions of the archfiends, I suspect they will supply epic level versions on their website eventually.

 

[coyote6]

If WOTC had provided only epic level stats for the archfiends, all the low level players would have complained. Instead, WOTC provided regular stats, and now all the Epic level players are complaining (including me.) WOTC should have provided specific stats for regular versions of the archfiends, and epic level (or divine level) stats for the archfiends, then everyone would have been happy.

Nah. Most everyone would complain, because "they wasted all that space on those useless [epic/non-epic] stats!" It's a no-win situation for WotC.

 

[kenjib]

If that were true, then the Demon lords/archdevils should be on par with Solars. Since Solars can no doubt pull the heavenly weight, so too should the fiends, both political and combat wise.

Aren't they? Solar is CR 19 with 22 HD. With 66 HD he is CR 23. That's pretty close to Graz'zt.