The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[Darkness]

Since quite a few of you are comparing the 3e fiend lords to their 1e counterparts...

stats of 1e overfiends:

Amon: AC -2, hp 126
Asmodeus: AC -7, hp 199
Baalzebul: AC -5, hp 166
Bel: AC -3, hp 106
Belial: AC -4, hp 154
Dispater: AC -2, hp 144
Glasya: AC -2, hp 69
Hutijin: AC -4, hp 111
Mammon: AC -3, hp 139
Mephistopheles: AC -6, hp 188
Moloch: AC -3, hp 126
Titivilus: AC -2, hp 86

Baphomet: AC -4, hp 106
Demogorgon: AC -8, hp 200
Fraz-Urb'luu: AC -2, hp 233
Graz'zt: AC -9, hp 186
Juiblex: AC -7, hp 88
Orcus: AC -6, hp 120
Pazuzu: AC -9, hp 155
Yeenoghu: AC -5, hp 100

Hmm... Most other stats (e.g., damage) can't be compared so easily...
Anything else I should add that I can add in a usable format?

 

[Xarlen]

Aren't they? Solar is CR 19 with 22 HD. With 66 HD he is CR 23. That's pretty close to Graz'zt.

Then... what's the problem?

The Archdevils and Demon Princes are not gods. Perhaps a Quasi-God, surely having cults around them, but they are the Most Powerful Fiend. Solars are the Most Powerful Celestial. It's like saying 'How do I make my goldfish as big and mean as a trout?'.

You compare them to gods, but they're not. You compare them to epic level characters, but they're not. They Are Fiends. Sure, the biggest, baddest fiend there ever is, who can bend a Balor over and spank him, but a Balor can bend a lemur over and do the same thing. Simply put, they're at the top of the food-chain in their area.

Sorry, folks, but this isn't 1e, or 2e. These aren't the same guys they were in 1e, just like the system isn't the same. If you don't like the stats, change them, don't buy the book, so on, because this is what WotC has given you. Now it's your turn to decide what to do about the stats.

 

[RobNJ]

Aside from precedence established in 1ed. Precendence that 3ed has been using fairly consistently.

Precedence is no argument. I've heard rumors that paladins were kept as a core class and shield and magic missile were kept as 1st level to pander to this same concern. We know all-but-for-sure that various alignment restrictions on classes were kept in for "precedence" reasons, and we know how popular these kinds of things are, here.

This is a new game. It doesn't have to abide by the muddled arguments of prior games. It is not some objectively identifaible failure that it fails to do so.

Change for change's sake is, arguably, not a virtue. Neither is standing still for its own sake.

 

[drnuncheon]

If WOTC had provided only epic level stats for the archfiends, all the low level players would have complained. Instead, WOTC provided regular stats, and now all the Epic level players are complaining (including me.) WOTC should have provided specific stats for regular versions of the archfiends, and epic level (or divine level) stats for the archfiends, then everyone would have been happy.

How do you provide epic level stats when epic levels go on up forever? There's always going to be someone who will be upset because the demons/devils/whatever aren't powerful enough to challenge their ever-increasingly-leveled players.

At least with the core books you know that 20th level is 'it'. (Except for those 26th level commoners running around metropoli according to the DMG!)

Or that 3 different basic MM dragons should not be MORE powerful than not just " a demon lord", but a long established big boy on the block.

I would say that a great wyrm red dragon ought to occupy roughly the same power niche as a demon lord. They ought to be terrifying, unique opponents with their own name, personality, tactics, etc - just like a demon lord. Players should be terrified when they think of fighting them - just like a demon lord. If they're not, the DM ain't doing his job right.

I find this whole debate fascinating because there are aparrently so many people who think that there's some kind of 'objective D&D reality' - UK tosses off bits about how 32nd level characters might be the toughest in the world, but not on the planes, for example - and then talks about Union from the ELH.

The ELH, the planar cosmology - all of those things are tools. They modify the defaults of D&D. There's no way for WOTC to know which ones you're using - I for one will be using the ELH, but I don't intend to spend my money on D&Dg - so they can't assume you're using any of them. It's the only rational way to do things.

Is Graz'zt a terrifying opponent for 20th level characters? At CR 24, he ought to be. At CR 24 he could be the climactic encounter for an entire campaign that's started from first level, slowly uncovering his plots, getting closer and closer to the center as the PCs grow in power until they can finally confront the demon lord himself. And he'll be a tough encounter - I mean, an encounter with an EL of Party Level+4 is one CR below "overpowering", as in "run or die". And that's just Graz'zt alone.

If you want to use Graz'zt as an opponent in a higher-level Epic game, then it behooves you to make him into an Epic opponent - you, not WOTC, just the same as if you wanted to make changes to any other monster to fit your specific campaign. You can't expect Wizards to write things specifically for your game. I think this has been said about six times now by different people, so I'm not sure why I'm trying to say it.

You can say "they should have included two sets of stats", but why stop at 2? Why not include stats so people can be challenged by Graz'zt when they're 50th level? Or 100th? You're basically saying 'these aren't the stats I wanted' - well, you obviously have some idea of the stats you wanted, so use them. We won't tell. Honest.

See, to provide Epic stats for the demon lords (without requiring the ELH) they'd have to reprint rules from the ELH. And to provide divine stats, they'd have to reprint rules from D&Dg. So now you have three sets of stats (regular, epic, and divine) and the rules to support them...and all of a sudden you're over the page count, and the book is looking less like the 'Book of Vile Darkness' and more like 'WOTC tries to do Legions of Hell'. Either the book becomes a $40 hardback (and doesn't sell as well) or you cut something. What goes? How about the stuff that's redundant, reprinted, and dealing with non-core stuff? Like...the duplicate demon lord stats, because like it or not, they're not the focus of the book.

As for Graz'zt's power relative to other demon lords - and keeping in mind I don't have the BoVD yet - remember that CR reflects how tough a particular creature is for a party of 4 characters to beat. The king of an entire country could be a terrifying and unbeatable foe because of the resources at his command - and yet he might be only a 5th level Aristocrat (CR 5). So there may be other factors which keep Graz'zt on the level of Demogorgon and Orcus. After all, I don't think that demon lords go out and have an Irish stand-down to determine things...

J

 

[kenjib]

Then... what's the problem?

I don't have one. I like the low CR's for these guys. You're arguing with the wrong person.

My point was that they don't have to have a high CR to rule over a plane of hell/abyss and that I think it's appropriate for them to not be all that much tougher than a maxxed out dragon. It's the same point as yours, so I'm not sure who you are referring to by "you", as it's certainly not me.

 

[greymarch]

Nah. Most everyone would complain, because "they wasted all that space on those useless [epic/non-epic] stats!" It's a no-win situation for WotC.

Considering that this thread is now up to 155 messages, and most of those have been about why WOTC didnt include epic level versions of the archfiends, I think it would definitely have made everyone happy. Its obviously what everyone is concerned about. The official messageboards, while not quite as busy, are experiencing the same phenomenon.

 

[Ulrick]

Some gory pictures, some nudity, but nothing much nuder than we've seen in some Mongoose books I could name. However, the nudity is a bit more on the disturbing side (sacrifices, succubi, demon-summoners). The nudity isn't particularly provocative, it's more incidental. (Well, the picture of Belial and Fierna is a bit... out there, I'll admit.)

The gore isn't over the top, it seems just right for the situations in which it is used. The situations might be somewhat extreme, but then again, this is a book of vile darkness.

Ulrick - do I know you? I'm in Ames too, I got mine at Mayhem.

You might know me. I still go to Mayhem once a week to see if they have stuff that's been released. But I rarely buy stuff there since its overpriced and I can usually find it cheaper online.

I'm the President of the ISU Guild and Wargamers and Roleplayers.

You also may know me as The Dungeon Master...

Ulrick

 

[Mercule]

Hey Ray Silver are you a student in Iowa City? My friend and I have been looking for people to game with...

I just met some IC gamers/students looking for a game. They might only be interested in Amber, but you never know (my game's full, so I didn't ask). Mail me at mercule@yahoo.com and I'll pass along your contact info.

 

[RobNJ]

Considering that this thread is now up to 155 messages, and most of those have been about why WOTC didnt include epic level versions of the archfiends, I think it would definitely have made everyone happy. Its obviously what everyone is concerned about. The official messageboards, while not quite as busy, are experiencing the same phenomenon.

Apparently it needs to be said endlessly, but this forum, and all the internet fora in the world, are not even a large percentage of the D&D gaming public. And furthermore, they're not a representative sample. They're self-selecting for people who feel like arguing about stupid things passionately, as though they mean something. They're self-selecting for extensive internet users. They're self-selecting for people who think their opinions are precious little lumps of gold, rather than lumps of something else. And let me save you the time of writing a witty retort: that goes for me too.

So we can't tell anything from message board gossip except what this particular group of message board gossipers like or care about.

Furthermore, you and your ilk have hijacked this thread to grind your particular axe. The volume of posts is not wholly on your side. Indeed, it seems to be at least fifty-fifty.

The volume of posts reflects nothing more than what people are willing to strenuously argue about, not what everyone thinks. You're essentially saying, "everyone cares about what I care about because I've got 10 people arguing about it on one of seven dozen internet role playing fora." This is patently absurd.

 

[BryonD]

drnuncheon,

Again, I don't disagree with anything you said.

However, I think you have made my point. The ELH has rules for advanced dragons and epic dragons. So the paradigm you describe (in which a CR24 Grazz'zt works fine) is not compatible with the ELH.

When you say
"If you want to use Graz'zt as an opponent in a higher-level Epic game, then it behooves you to make him into an Epic opponent - you, not WOTC, just the same as if you wanted to make changes to any other monster to fit your specific campaign. You can't expect Wizards to write things specifically for your game. I think this has been said about six times now by different people, so I'm not sure why I'm trying to say it."

you are in essence agreeing with me, that (based on the CR24) Graz'zt does not fit where he should for a game using the ELH. What does that mean? It means the BoVD and ELH are not compatible.

I don't have any expectation that WoTC will make changes that fit my specific campaign. I have never mentioned my specific campaign. I would have thought that they would NOT require me to make changes to make their own products work with each other.

Again, I don't have a problem with it, I am just pointing it out as interesting.