The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[greymarch]

The volume of posts reflects nothing more than what people are willing to strenuously argue about, not what everyone thinks. You're essentially saying, "everyone cares about what I care about because I've got 10 people arguing about it on one of seven dozen internet role playing fora." This is patently absurd.

The volume of posts, and the discussion contained therein clearly points to the value of archfiends in the BoVD, despite your judgement. Just because you dont like it, doesnt make it so. You will just have to learn to deal with it.

 

[barsoomcore]

Considering that this thread is now up to 155 messages, and most of those have been about why WOTC didnt include epic level versions of the archfiends, I think it would definitely have made everyone happy.

Sigh.

And how do you know that if they had included the stats there wouldn't be just as much uproar over the wasted space? Or something else? You don't. You seem to think that 155 messages is a significant data point. It isn't.

 

[barsoomcore]

The volume of posts, and the discussion contained therein clearly points to the value of archfiends in the BoVD, despite your judgement.

Yes, and if you ignore people's arguments, and keep insisting that you are right without ever rebutting their points, you'll probably wear them out. That won't make you right, despite your judgement.

The only thing that will demonstrate that you are correct is your ability to uncover the flaws in his argument. Since you apparently can't do that, the noble thing to do is to admit that you are wrong.

You don't have to be noble, of course, but then we'll have to get SemperJase to tell you about the dangers of practicing ignoble behaviour.

 

[S'mon]

I kinda liked the weak-ish demon lords in 1e. But then the gods were on the same scale. I think perhaps the big problem is with the OTT god stats in DDG, not the demons in BoVD, although Graz'zt clearly did get the shaft relative to CR 30 Asmodeus etc. The poster who said that Graz'zt 'needed to be made uncool' is possibly onto something.
I agree also that giant ELH uber-monsters can plausibly be made more powerful than human-sized demon lords (or gods) - an iceberg is more powerful than a battleship, if the two collide... they're just not on the same scale.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

drnuncheon,

Again, I don't disagree with anything you said.

However, I think you have made my point. The ELH has rules for advanced dragons and epic dragons. So the paradigm you describe (in which a CR24 Grazz'zt works fine) is not compatible with the ELH.

When you say
"If you want to use Graz'zt as an opponent in a higher-level Epic game, then it behooves you to make him into an Epic opponent - you, not WOTC, just the same as if you wanted to make changes to any other monster to fit your specific campaign. You can't expect Wizards to write things specifically for your game. I think this has been said about six times now by different people, so I'm not sure why I'm trying to say it."

you are in essence agreeing with me, that (based on the CR24) Graz'zt does not fit where he should for a game using the ELH. What does that mean? It means the BoVD and ELH are not compatible.

Why can't you use the rules for advancing dragons to advance demon lords? I don't think "incompatible" is the right word you're looking for. "Incompatible" implies that if you use ELH rules with BoVD, the system will somehow fall apart. Perhaps what you mean is "doesn't assume ELH as a default," which is exactly the point. It shouldn't assume ELH as a default, nor should it assume D&DG as a default.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

I kinda liked the weak-ish demon lords in 1e.

So you liked the fact that Lolth only had 69 hit points?

 

[Xarlen]

I don't have one. I like the low CR's for these guys. You're arguing with the wrong person.

My point was that they don't have to have a high CR to rule over a plane of hell/abyss and that I think it's appropriate for them to not be all that much tougher than a maxxed out dragon. It's the same point as yours, so I'm not sure who you are referring to by "you", as it's certainly not me.

Nono. Not YOU, but more the general 'you all'. Kenjib just supplied me with a comparison which then I springed of saying 'See? They's even, now the rest of you look here'.

 

[Grazzt]

Sigh.

And how do you know that if they had included the stats there wouldn't be just as much uproar over the wasted space? Or something else? You don't. You seem to think that 155 messages is a significant data point. It isn't.

You are correct. On both accounts. If they had included divine stats, like I said in my post above, half the people here would be bitching because it contradicts the rules given in the DDG, DotF, and MotP.

Also as you said, the data point is insignificant. Hell, the entire internet gaming community doesn't even account for the majority of gamers out there. There are millions and millions of gamers in the world. The majority either do not have internet access or bother with gaming-related stuff on the internet. We are a niche community in a niche hobby.

 

[herald]

You don't have to be noble, of course, but then we'll have to get SemperJase to tell you about the dangers of practicing ignoble behaviour.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ROTFOL<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

[greymarch]

See!?! Between my last post and this one, more people have posted comments and questions about the archfiends in the BoVD. There is lots of cool stuff in the BoVD, and I am desperate to buy it, but its horribly obvious that what most people were curious about were the archfiends and how powerful they would/should be.