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The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

IceBear said:
Like many sacred cows, 3E has changed the power levels of the various demon lords. IF you didn't know what the relative power levels were supposed to be based on the past editions, would this thread have died awhile ago?

For those that don't like the power levels, fix them. Better yet, maybe someone should contact Monte and ask for the rationale on why the power levels changed so we have a basis to understand what's going on. It could be something as simple as the war has gone badly for Graz'zt and now Orcus and Demogorgon are more powerful than him in the 'stock' D&D universe.

Anyway, I don't think applying 1st and 2nd Edition information to 3E is 100% appropriate.

IceBear
Cook already explained part of his overarching rationale. To him, it's important to have high-powered evil foes that PCs can fight. He referred to these kinds of opportunities in 1ed and decided to stat these guys out as non-divine for this reason. With 2ed, this was not possible since gods and god-like entities weren't statted; only the avatars were (which is also why they dumbed down Graz'zt and Pazuzu/Pazreal to Abyssal Lords).

3ed has returned to the philosophy that everything can be statted, including gods. Indeed, arguably the heart of D&D is essentially rooted in 1ed concepts, ideas, and presentation. Gods can once again be killed and defeated. For whatever reason, though, Cook and co. decided not to extend this concept to the arch-fiends, who in 1ed were ranked as Lesser gods. I reiterate that his argument rests on parties being able to battle and defeat them at the end of a long campaign.

My problem with this argument is that the gods were also statted out in 1ed and were often killed/defeated by gamers. Cook and co. never clarified why there should be a difference now between the gods and archfiends (and I would include other Planar entities) in that everything has stats. Simply put, the decision made was inconsistent on two fronts. First, it disregards the fact that even gods in 3ed have stats and can be defeated by sufficiently high-level characters. Second, it's not consistent with the general trend regarding the "homage" and "nostalgia" paid to 1ed in handling these particular entities... which, as evidenced by these debates that have been raging for over a year, are extremely popular.

The best option, in my mind, would have been the olive branch WotC offered to those proponents of 2ed's concepts of gods (myself formerly included). In Deities and Demigods, a DM can use the stats of the gods provided as the real god, powerful avatars, and so on. This would please those interested in having official, multiple options. It also allows for those who want to have earlier encounters. A group of 20th level characters could conceivably fight the avatar of Tiamat as written. Then, they could travel to Hell and battle the actual goddess as 50th level epic characters.

The archfiends should have been handled in a similar fashion. It would have been consistent with 1ed and would have pleased all parties without requiring too much additional work for most. Provide divine stats, avatar stats, and a caveat about which one could be used for the actual fiend if a person didn't see them as a god or divine. Those who agree with Cook (I happen to agree with his perspective, but not the specifics and his ultimate conclusion) that the fiends can be fought and defeated would have options in handling this without isolating any one group.

As for applying earlier editions to 3ed... I disagree with you. I think that looking back on the editions is one of the most important elements in the redesign of the game. Many of the concepts in earlier editions are the fuel used for this edition.
 

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Serge, I often refer back to the past editions when it comes to gray rules, so I guess I should have explained myself better when I said that about using the past rules - I just meant the status quo for the past editions don't necessarily apply to 3E. They may have been the basis for many things in 3E, but 3E was also designed to move away from some of these past conceptions. Anyway, I don't think we really disagree on this point I just think I'm not articulating myself well.

What I'm sure WotC will do is release a web enhancement that will contain some of the missing demon princes and also contain the divine stats that many people seem to want.

IceBear
 

The Serge said:
The archfiends should have been handled in a similar fashion. It would have been consistent with 1ed and would have pleased all parties without requiring too much additional work for most. Provide divine stats, avatar stats, and a caveat about which one could be used for the actual fiend if a person didn't see them as a god or divine. Those who agree with Cook (I happen to agree with his perspective, but not the specifics and his ultimate conclusion) that the fiends can be fought and defeated would have options in handling this without isolating any one group.
This is so frustrating.

If they did what you suggest, people would've complained about that, too. Or they would've complained about the extra cost.

This kind of thing is appropriate for a web enhancement, but complaining that they didn't write the book the way you wanted it to be written, and that is a failing, is an irritating, selfish and short sighted argument.
 

IceBear said:
Serge, I often refer back to the past editions when it comes to gray rules, so I guess I should have explained myself better when I said that about using the past rules - I just meant the status quo for the past editions don't necessarily apply to 3E. They may have been the basis for many things in 3E, but 3E was also designed to move away from some of these past conceptions. Anyway, I don't think we really disagree on this point I just think I'm not articulating myself well.

What I'm sure WotC will do is release a web enhancement that will contain some of the missing demon princes and also contain the divine stats that many people seem to want.

IceBear
Thanks for the clarification; you're correct, we don't really disagree on that point.

I think a web enhancement would be the way to go at this point depending on what we all ultimately see this weekend (except for Upper Krust... he never gets anything until three weeks later it seems :P). If the options presented allow for better customization (although the root taken in DDG would have been better) then great. If not, then I think that an enhancement for the archfiends with full divine powers at the Lesser god level (still too weak for me, but it would fit in with the entire throw-back to 1ed concepts) would be in order. If they did that in the first place, I don't think we'd see half the arguments on this matter.

IceBear... cute name. Relevance?
 

I have an interesting point I'd like to make....

Here is a snippet of the 3E Manual of the Planes....

Brutally repressed rumors suggest that there is more to Asmodeus than he admits. The story goes that the true form of Asmodeus actually resides in the deepest rift of Nessus called the Serpent’s Coil. The shape seen by all the other devils of the Nine Hells in the fortress of Malsheem is actually a highly advanced use of the project image spell or an avatar of some sort.

The secret rift, formed by Asmodeus’ plummeting body when he first arrived in the Nine Hells, spirals inward over the course of hundreds of miles. His titanic, miles-long form still rests here—and his wounds have yet to heal. His acid-black blood pools in the hallows of the rift, a substance fouler than foul.

From where fell Asmodeus? Was he once a greater deity cast down from Elysium or Celestia, or is he older yet, as the rumor hints? Perhaps he represents some fundamental entity whose mere existence pulls the multiverse into its current configuration.

Now, is any of this even mentioned in BoVD, or does the left hand know what the right hand is doing here?

My suggestion would be to treat the CR 32 Asmodeus as his 'avatar' or project image as described in the above text, and then stat out his true form however you feel appropriate.

My 2 gold,
- Kae.
 

Hehehe - long story

I was a HUGE Battletech fan in the past so when MW2 came out I was all over it. Then when the Clan Ghostbear addon came, I decided to use the nick Ghostbear. About that time I was also on mIRC a lot and I was using the nick Ghostbear. Then I got into a nickwar and basically gave up. Since there was lots of ice and snow in the game, I called myself IceBear. Since then I realized I'm bearish in shape and from Canada (which people attribute to ice and snow even if I haven't see a white Christmas in over 7 years) so IceBear kinda fits.

Told you it was a long story :)

As for why they didn't include the divine stats in the first place, I'm sure there was a business reason (though I don't know what that is as the book is apparently undersized).

IceBear
 
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RobNJ said:
This is so frustrating.

If they did what you suggest, people would've complained about that, too. Or they would've complained about the extra cost.

This kind of thing is appropriate for a web enhancement, but complaining that they didn't write the book the way you wanted it to be written, and that is a failing, is an irritating, selfish and short sighted argument.
Wow. You're really taking this personally. :( That's too bad. Sorry if that's the way you feel about my arguments and position, but I don't believe I'm being short sighted or selfish (see below).

However, I do agree that there would be complaints. They'd be about as loud as those regarding the statting out of gods... and that wasn't too loud. It would have offered more options.

And, no, that's not the way I want it to be written by the best compromise. Personally, I want a book deals exclusively with the archfiends, provides detailed up-to-date descriptions on the politics (or lackthereof) of Hell and The Abyss, with stats that reflect Asmodeus as a Greater god (at least), Demogorgon as an Intermediate god (at least) and down from there. That's what I want. But, I'm willing to compromise and I think the suggestion I made would have pleased more people than the current situation.
 

IceBear said:

Told you it was a long story :)

As for why they didn't include the divine stats in the first place, I'm sure there was a business reason (though I don't know what that is as the book is apparently undersized).

Hehe, maybe it became undersized, when they left out prostitution rules, after Monte's public complaint, that he would never write such to the book.

Ok, I am kidding, but I remember word 'prostitution' in original add, and it is there now more, mere coincidence? ;)
 

Psion said:


I really beg to differ. Chaotic Evil =/= Chaotic Stupid.

Yes, CE is predecated on the fact that power goes to those who can keep it...

However, that power can be gained and held by treachery and guile as well as personal power.
Chaotic Evil is evil marked by disregard for social conventions. This may describe a ravening barbarian. It also describes characters like Valmont of Dangerous Liaisons.


I disagree strongly - you're ingnoring the fact (IMO), that to succeed as a Valmont you need to be in a Lawful (maybe Lawful Evil) society to start with! Drop Valmont into Mogadishu and see how he does. I've GM'd a lot of CE campaigns, seen a lot of CE PCs, and how it works in literature and in the real world. Chaotic Evil can't help but act Chaotic Evilly, otherwise it's LE (actually Valmont's probably NE, anyway).

Maybe CE behaviour isn't 'Chaotic Stupid' but it's neither rational nor sensible, and is often against the long-term interests of the CE person themselves. It is Chaotic and Evil, you know!
 

Upper_Krust said:
Hi Knight Otu and Psion! :)

Actually that was an inside joke between S'mon and myself. He ran the adventure and had inadvertantly scribbled 122 hit points down for Lolth (I have his Queen of the Demonweb Pits module). Something that was only picked up on after the adventure*.

*I didn't participate in that adventure myself.

Yeah yeah, you'll never let me forget that! :)
What's worse is, I think she only took 127 damage in the first round of combat with the attackers (all level 20+ or quasi-deity types), if I hadn't made that mistake she'd have escaped! :confused:
 

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