The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[Upper_Krust]

Hi drnuncheon!

But you know what? Demogorgon's not going to do that. Because he's not stupid.

I agree Demogorgon wouldn't commit his forces unless he has a perceived advantage such as Graz'zt's relative weakness in the Book of Vile Darkness - which was how the example initially arose.

As soon as he assembles his millions of demons and marches on Graz'zt, Orcus is going to assemble his millions of demons and put a hurting on the ol'double-header while he isn't there to do anything about it.

Exactly.

Demogorgon might walk though Graz'zt's champions and such, but that doesn't mean he'll come through unharmed

Nevertheless Graz'zts forces will have been significantly dwindled.

If the two armies take the field its the Monarchs; Princes and Lords that inflict the real damage.

- and he definitely won't come through the fight with Graz'zt unharmed.

He doesn't even need to fight Graz'zt. If Graz'zt laps the initial challenge Demogorgon has a free hand to inflict damage upon his forces.

And when he limps his sorry tentacled behind back home afte rwinning the fight, guess who's waiting? It's his good buddy Orcus, who is fresh and rested and unharmed, armed with a full complement of spells and ready to make Demogorgon suck the pain pipe.

LOL

So, Graz'zt doesn't have to be tough enough to beat anyone that comes his way - he just has to be tough enough to make it a bad idea to attack him. Neither he nor Orcus nor Demogorgon is going to make a definitive move against the other two unless he believes he can beat both of them...and whatever other challenger is going to rise up afterwards.

If Demogorgon perceives an advantage he will act on it.

 

[S'mon]

A fallacy some people have made is that the Abyss is a plane of Absolute, Total, Chaos & Evil. Such a thing is inconceivable to a human mind, just as Absolute Law & Good is. If it exists in the Abyss, it's the layers where simply going there turns you into a Bodak. What humans see as the Abyss is that part of Chaos & Evil able to interact with humanity. And even Slaadi have some organisation (ranking) & society. Demons can have much more.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

That's great, but we are talking about WOTC's system right now. (I think to avoid confusion, you should call yours the Krust Rating, or KR!)

Agreed.

...we had some confusion about this over in the House Rules Forum too.

Since you don't have Grazzt's stats (or Orcus' or Demogorgon's), we don't know the KR for any of them - only the CR. And as I have shown, the CR is not a valid method of comparing two monsters.

But it is applicable for measuring relative power.

It was a hypothetical monster created solely for the purpose of illustrating the example. There's precedent in the rules for localized effects of various sorts - spells that give bonuses vs. evil spells, etc.

Absolutely - but that sort of 'situational modifier' could be just as applicable to the PCs.

And yet, the weretiger is still likely to defeat the Dire Tiger, even tho it's KR is lower! You are only giving more evidence for my point - Challenge Rating - or Krust Rating - is insufficient for a "who'd win".

If it were sufficient, then it would be the only stat needed in the game...

Maybe it was in another thread where I mentioned a situational modifier. My memories on the blink again - and I don't fancy wading through this thread again!

 

[takyris]

Let's see...

barsoomcore: You just gave me the shuddering creepies by comparing my post to Survivor...

Celebrim: That darn "Using this theory, this would have eventually happened" logic! I HATE that logic... If I were gonna mount a strenuous defense, I'd probably base it on the notion that competition will be fiercest where the people are closer in power. The greater the power difference, the longer they are to work together. That lets a succubus work for Graz'zt, but keeps the high-level rivalries going. And I'd never imagined a bunch of succubi working well together for long -- they'd be fighting like cats and, well, cats, to win Big G's favor...

But frankly, even that's pretty shaky. As a non-chaotic-evil person, I think I've gone about as far into the mentality as I can without putting my own "what I'd do"'s into it. The flawed model I've got is still basically good enough to support the game I want to run -- and if my players ever say something about demons allying together like that, I'll just grin and ask, "How do you know they haven't?" And then they'll throw dice at me.

Serge: When it comes down to it, I think you and I have a fundamental disagreement as to what Chaotic means, and it's a fine disagreement to have with no hard feelings on my end. The inherent limitation of Chaos/Law and Good/Evil in D&D is that it lumps "Works well in hierarchical structure" and "Self-discipline" together under Law. This means that Demons, the very embodiments of Chaos, are supposed to be devoid of self-discipline. I think you're probably right as to what the D&D official rules say. Personally, though, I can't stand villains devoid of self-discipline, because they die so very quickly and stupidly -- so I'm ignoring that aspect of Law/Chaos and declaring it non-alignment-based. And it lets me have the world I want.

Thanks all,
-Tacky

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi herald!

I'm sure I didn't miss anthing on the FAQ that you should be pendantic on the board.

...and who gets to determine whos being too pedantic...what is this 1984!?

Oh no, I'm sure pretty sure that they can actually justify them, weather you like it or not is up to you. Any way you slice it though, it's justified.

I'm all for it - lets hear their justification then!?

Ah, but that's where you arguement starts to fail. You see FR follows a completly differant cosmology. The planes follow a "Great Tree" instead of a "Great Wheel" concept. The only way these cosmologies intersect is at the "Shadow Plane" (Provided that you use this optional rule)

All planes that share the same name are infact seperate and differant.

At this point the realms have no direct connection to the typical planescape campaign setting as originally presented.

What has the forgotten realms cosmology got to do with core cosmology though?

You use real world presedents? Are you telling me that you've visited the real Abyss? (Nevermind, I don't want to know)

LOL

The fact is that politics can work in the abyss and it does. Grazzat for could play both ends against the middle, which would make more sense than anything. He could hamstring his opponents into thinking that other threats exist that prevent his removal.

I would envision the Abyss requires a more hands on approach that you think. You seem to be picturing the Nine Hells.

Whatever you choose as an explination is fine. Insisting that stats balance what roleplaying should be able to explain is rather pointless.

Roleplaying only balances so much though.

Next thing you'll be telling me an Ultroloth rules the Gray Waste.

 

[The Serge]

Serge: When it comes down to it, I think you and I have a fundamental disagreement as to what Chaotic means, and it's a fine disagreement to have with no hard feelings on my end. The inherent limitation of Chaos/Law and Good/Evil in D&D is that it lumps "Works well in hierarchical structure" and "Self-discipline" together under Law. This means that Demons, the very embodiments of Chaos, are supposed to be devoid of self-discipline. I think you're probably right as to what the D&D official rules say. Personally, though, I can't stand villains devoid of self-discipline, because they die so very quickly and stupidly -- so I'm ignoring that aspect of Law/Chaos and declaring it non-alignment-based. And it lets me have the world I want.

No hard-feeling! I love these kinds of debates! They're the reason I come to the boards.

Your point on self-discipline is well taken and I can see that, if the idea of self-discipline is limited to Lawful alignments, then there can be a problem... particularly if it's applied clumsily. However, like I said earlier, I think for Demons, intelligence and wisdom will keep them alive although they'll rely on Strength to a greater degree.

I really enjoyed our conversation and look forward to having another one in the future (hopefully, we'll agree!).

UPPER_KRUST!
I heard that the Gord the Rogue cycle is to be reissued early next year. Have you heard this as well?

 

[drnuncheon]

Fair enough you say, the Demon Lords possess inhuman intelligence and are capable of manipulating others based on successfully divining both what the other has posited (that is in the simpliest case, whether they are telling the truth hoping you will believe it a lie, or telling the lie hoping you believe it to be the truth) AND predicting how the mark will respond when you face them with the same condrumdum.

Actually, what I'm saying is that if all demons take it to the levels that you describe, the entire Abyss becomes paralyzed, because all they do is sit around and think 'well, does he want me to do that? Or does he just want me to think he wants me to do that?" Nobody acts.

At some point, you have to act - and you'll probably do it based on unconscious or subconscious urges. The skill for the manipulator is in judging you and figuring out which way you'll come down when you do - or, of course, in putting you in a situation where the only rational act for your own self-interest is the one that he wants you to do.

(BTW - it always looked to me like Vizzini was cheating in the movie - he waited and watched Westley's reaction when he chose the cup, and didn't drink until Westley did. When Westley showed no hesitation, he "knew" that he was right. No idea what he would have done if Westley had looked afraid, though.)

I mean please, it is not stupid not to serve Graz'zt. Have you ever tried serving Graz'zt? Serving Graz'zt is what is stupid, and I'm sure that the Succubi makes the same argument to herself, but that I'd never believe what she was telling me about serving Graz'zt one way or the other.

Hmm. Are you so sure that it's stupid to serve a more powerful demon?

See, when Bob the Bored Balor comes along and wants to kill Suzy Succubus, if she doesn't serve someone powerful, she's SOL - dead and on a stick. But if she's Graz'zt's servant, she can say 'hey, don't touch me, I'm with the big G' - and the Balor will think twice about whacking her. Not because Graz'zt will come and kick his flaming red hinder around the Abyss, but because he might. So Bob isn't going to kill Suzy unless he thinks there's something in it for him.

Now sure, Bob could say "So? I serve Demogorgon." But then he has to think. Graz'zt throwing down with a Balor is one thing, but is Demogorgon really going to go toe to toe with Graz'zt over something his servant did? Probably not. And even if he does, Bob's still dead. Bob's got more to lose in this case. So he lets Suzy go, and wanders off to find some unaffiliated succubus to kill.

In a place like the Abyss - or any other Chaotic society - the weak flock to the strong, because only the strong can protect them from the strong.

J

 

[kenjib]

Tangent alert.

Are intelligence and chaos inherently opposed? Is not intelligence inherently an ordering of a random universe?

Should demons all have been mindless cosmic horrors like the great Azathoth? That would have been pretty cool as it would have made them more different from devils and daemons than they are now (and honesty the differences are really piddly if you think about it).

I don't see how a highly intelligent creature would allow the delicate balance of power to erupt into a winner-take-all scenario, since clearly each person's odds of winning are decidedly low, and ultimately completely zero when one considers invasion by highly organized devils, celestials, and others who would subsequently take out the solitary winner.

Can a truly pure chaotic non-society exist among intelligent creatures? I don't think so, as it defies personal logic (it's clearly stupid not to work together), and I don't think that demons *can* be as purely chaotic as some people want. It just doesn't work. They would have become extinct ages ago. That's why I argue that demons have to behave the way I've described -- with a web of interreliance based on mutual self-interest. Without some kind of structure like this, however loose, they cease to exist.

If I could re-write the D&D cosmology, demons would be mindless Lovecraftian horrors whose mere existance threatens to drive us insane. Even devils and daemons fear their irrational behavior. Devils would be the deal makers who plan their evil manipulations in a cruel and diabolical mockery of congressional politics. Daemons (yuguloths) would be those who believe in ultimate machiavellian power at any cost, living in the web of mutual self-interest I have described before. That would make all three different in an interesting way. As it is now, I think that daemons get kind of squeezed into a spot where there's no role left for them to play.

In any case, demons are not just chaotic, they are as evil as they are chaotic. Evil is self interest with no concern for others. At some point, these two impulses must balance against each other. Strict adherence to chaos flies in the face of the nature of evil, as it defies self preservation. Thus, there must be some sense of order among demons. Here is where we all have different interpretations, since this is clearly a problem with a continuum of solutions rather than one specific solution.

The key point for me though, is that D&D has always stressed the good-evil axis *much* more strongly than the law-chaos one. Therefore for demons, self-preservation takes precedence over defying the rule of law. They defy law when they can, but only when it does not bring serious harm to them. This means that they must have some level of cooperation.

I think the best solution is to consider the difference between law and cooperation. They are not at all the same thing. You can oppose law and support cooperation. That's why I view demons the way I do. They are like hippies gone bad.

 

[barsoomcore]

Actually, what I'm saying is that if all demons take it to the levels that you describe, the entire Abyss becomes paralyzed, because all they do is sit around and think 'well, does he want me to do that? Or does he just want me to think he wants me to do that?" Nobody acts.

Well, yeah. This is what I've been trying to point out. It's impossible. Which is why I think REAL evil is a silly, silly thing.

At some point, you have to act - and you'll probably do it based on unconscious or subconscious urges.

Actually, given the nature of life in the Abyss, I bet acting completely randomly is as good a survival strategy as any. Which is difficult even for Graz'zt to predict.

See, when Bob the Bored Balor comes along and wants to kill Suzy Succubus, if she doesn't serve someone powerful, she's SOL - dead and on a stick. But if she's Graz'zt's servant, she can say 'hey, don't touch me, I'm with the big G' - and the Balor will think twice about whacking her. Not because Graz'zt will come and kick his flaming red hinder around the Abyss, but because he might. So Bob isn't going to kill Suzy unless he thinks there's something in it for him.

Or unless he just bloody well feels like it. Because describe for me a situation in which Suzy WOULDN'T insist she enjoys a demon lord's protection? Whether it's true or not? Of course she's going to say, "Hey, those belong to Graz'zt, big boy." What other choice does she have? Bob's problem is that no matter what he does, he might end up getting his flaming red hinder kicked, because he has no way of knowing whether or not Suzy's on the level.

Now sure, Bob could say "So? I serve Demogorgon." But then he has to think. Graz'zt throwing down with a Balor is one thing, but is Demogorgon really going to go toe to toe with Graz'zt over something his servant did? Probably not. And even if he does, Bob's still dead. Bob's got more to lose in this case. So he lets Suzy go, and wanders off to find some unaffiliated succubus to kill.

Alright, so we very quickly run out of succubuses too stupid to tell balors that they're protected. Then what? What's Bob going to do now?

In a place like the Abyss - or any other Chaotic society - the weak flock to the strong, because only the strong can protect them from the strong.

I disagree. The strong have no motive to protect the weak. All they want to do is exploit the weak. And the weak KNOW this. There's no hope of it ever being otherwise, so why play the game in the first place? Your chances of winning are no better if you play, anyway.

 

[barsoomcore]

They are like hippies gone bad.

Didn't hippies start out pretty bad?