The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[kenjib]

Or unless he just bloody well feels like it. Because describe for me a situation in which Suzy WOULDN'T insist she enjoys a demon lord's protection? Whether it's true or not? Of course she's going to say, "Hey, those belong to Graz'zt, big boy." What other choice does she have? Bob's problem is that no matter what he does, he might end up getting his flaming red hinder kicked, because he has no way of knowing whether or not Suzy's on the level.

These demons don't exist in a vacuum. They don't need to tell each other that they are allied or not. They know just from reputation, like in high school you know that someone is in the drama club or a member of the football team. Actions speak louder than words and are harder to fake. Besides, if Suzy goes around lying to everyone about being protected by Gra'azt, do you think that there won't be repercussions from Gra'azt's followers for that?

This succubus is going to have a rep, and Gra'azt's folks are going to make her hurt if she says she's with him but isn't. Maybe if their feeling gracious they'll just let her perform some errands for them. Uh oh, now she's not lying anymore, she DOES work for Gra'azt.

I disagree. The strong have no motive to protect the weak. All they want to do is exploit the weak. And the weak KNOW this. There's no hope of it ever being otherwise, so why play the game in the first place? Your chances of winning are no better if you play, anyway.

The weak accept being exploited in order to be protected. The strong protect the weak because they are useful servants as opposed to enemies. Winning does not equal becoming the biggest and most powerful thing ever in the history of the world. For demons, winning just means surviving, and possibly becoming a little more powerful when the opportunity presents itself. It seems like you present an all-or-nothing situation here when there is plenty of middle ground.

 

[Nightfall]

The only difference between Survivor and the Abyss:

Abyss is more fun cause you can KILL off people IF they screw up and you hated them anyway. Survivor, they just keep coming back...

 

[barsoomcore]

These demons don't exist in a vacuum. They don't need to tell each other that they are allied or not.

You imagine there's some sort of league listings? There are billions of demons, are there not? We're not talking about, say, European politics here. We're talking about the endless hordes of the Abyss.

The example provided said exactly that -- that Suzy tells Bob she's with Graz'zt. It's drmuncheon's example -- if you don't like it, tell him. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't prove his point.

Besides, if Suzy goes around lying to everyone about being protected by Gra'azt, do you think that there won't be repercussions from Gra'azt's followers for that?

And which of Graz'zt's followers are A) going to care and B) going to know if she's lying or not? Why would they? Caring is only going to make Graz'zt stronger, which isn't going to help their position any -- in fact the stronger Graz'zt gets the less he's going to need their help so they really want to keep him right where he is. And how would they know this isn't some trick of Graz'zt's to flush out their own disloyalties? Or that Graz'zt has some secret deal going with this cutie?

The point is that with demons these sorts of things are much more likely than with any human being, and there are no counterbalancing forces of loyalty or love to supply the needed cohesion. All there is is fear, and that is a self-destructive way to run a society. It cannot last, and will eventually succumb as the one most powerful overruns all the others. If he's got eternity in which to do it, he'll manage eventually.

This succubus is going to have a rep, and Gra'azt's folks are going to make her hurt if she says she's with him but isn't. Maybe if their feeling gracious they'll just let her perform some errands for them. Uh oh, now she's not lying anymore, she DOES work for Gra'azt.

I'm sure she'd be more than happy to be asked to perform some errands for Graz'zt. It gives her more chances to cause pain.

The weak accept being exploited in order to be protected.

And I'm saying the protection of a demon is valueless.

The strong protect the weak because they are useful servants as opposed to enemies.

Only demons never make useful servants.

Winning does not equal becoming the biggest and most powerful thing ever in the history of the world.

It does if that is your only means of assuring your own survival.

It seems like you present an all-or-nothing situation here when there is plenty of middle ground.

Sorry, aren't we talking about the Abyss? The planar representation of pure chaotic evil?

I mean, if you think there can be a middle ground, then aren't you saying that demons aren't purely chaotic evil? I mean, if demons are capable of trust and loyalty then surely they're capable of changing and growing and therefore turning to good and so just hauling off and slaying them maybe isn't such a good thing to do?

Sure, you can say the Abyss has lots of middle ground, grey areas, some demons aren't so bad and actually do the smart thing on occasion, and that's fine. Do what makes your game fun.

All I'm saying is that the whole notion of beings of real, pure chaotic evil seems silly to me. Not because I can't imagine how they might physically exist, but because I can't imagine how they function rationally. Pure chaotic evil isn't even remotely rational, so how can a rational society be built upon it?

And then if you say they aren't necessarily pure chaotic evil it becomes morally difficult to run a game in which the killing of demons is a priori good.

That's what I think.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey coyote6 mate!

I hate it when that happens. Usually, I just let it go, 'cause like the man said, hey, silly discussion.

True but its rude not to reply to people who have themselves replied to one of your posts...unless the discussion has ended.

Two responses:

1) If demons are so chaotic and evil that personal Smackdown Ability is the most important attribute of a ranking demon, then the One True Demonic Monarch was perforce powerful enough to smack down every other menace to get his job. So how did a bunch of weaker guys ever manage to take him down?

Its plausible there could have been some outside* involvement.

*of the Abyss.

eg. Perhaps the Lords of the Nine felt threatened by the unified power of the Abyss and aided one of the subordinate factions.

He would just kill everyone anywhere near powerful enough to be a threat (when combined with enough others of similar power).

That would simply weaken his power base though.

Since demons have that chaotic, evil, utterly untrustable nature (that makes personal Smackdown Ability so necessary), a large conspiracy would be impossible, meaning that the One True Demonic Monarch only needs to kill (and keep killing) a relative few to keep himself firmly in place.

You can always trust demons always to look out for themselves.

So why isn't he still The King?

Any number of potential reasons.

(Of course, without all those balors, celestials or devils will roll in, and eliminate all demons forever, but hey. Them's the breaks.)

Exactly.

2) OTOH, if demons can intrigue and conspire with one another to take down the One True Demonic Monarch, then why can't a demon intrigue & manipulate to keep himself as one of the Big Boys?

Nothing to say he couldn't - just not indefinately. Also intelligent demons are inherantly cowardly and unable to act unless the perceive themselves to hold the upper hand.

In other words, why can't Graz'zt, prince of deception, pull enough strings to give himself enough political power to rival Orcus & Demogorgon & Ronald McDonald?

...because then the KFC Colonel will call him out!

One final thought: so, Graz'zt used to be just as Personally Badass as Orcus & Demogorgon, and now he's not.

So, what changed? How did Graz'zt lose power?

Perhaps he never really had that power, and only fooled everyone (esp. one Gygax) into thinking he did.

Or perhaps he reached too far, and lost power.

All viable suppositions.

Maybe he sought to commit the ultimate betrayal, and cut a deal with Asmodeus (or one of those fabled 66 HD solars!) to betray the whole of the Abyss; instead, he lost his shirt.

Funnily enough Demogorgon makes a similar deal (with Nerull-Infestix) in the Gord the Rogue novels.

Perhaps Orcus' return from whatever-it-was that happened to him in 2e precipitated a loss of personal might for Graz'zt. So maybe now the demon of deception is desperately trying to pull the strings and layer the lies to keep himself on top. Andor he's looking to regain his lost strength.

Or maybe he hasn't lost power at all, and is only pretending to, to lure his enemies into foolishness (of course, his lies fooled a fellow named Cook, along with the requisite developers, editors, and such).

Thats the version I favour!

Maybe Graz'zt has found a way to achieve truly divine status, and make various posters happy, but it requires he first lose power before he can make himself God of All Deceptions.

Way ahead of you on that one mate!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Serge mate!

UPPER_KRUST!
I heard that the Gord the Rogue cycle is to be reissued early next year. Have you heard this as well?

Yep.

Gary said they are doing a graphic novel representation of all seven novels to be released early next year (hopefully) and they are also reprinting all the novesl in hardback format.

 

[kenjib]

I mean, if you think there can be a middle ground, then aren't you saying that demons aren't purely chaotic evil? I mean, if demons are capable of trust and loyalty then surely they're capable of changing and growing and therefore turning to good and so just hauling off and slaying them maybe isn't such a good thing to do?

Sure, you can say the Abyss has lots of middle ground, grey areas, some demons aren't so bad and actually do the smart thing on occasion, and that's fine. Do what makes your game fun.

Oh, sorry. I meant a middle ground vis-a-vis winning or losing, not a moral middle ground, which is what you are talking about. It's interesting that you posit "do the smart thing" in contrast to being bad. If you check out a couple of posts back, I posit that chaos and intelligence are opposed. What do you think of that?

I think it's necessary for evil to take clear precedence over chaos for demons to make sense. You seem to be focusing on chaos. The two concepts are actually slightly contradictory.

All I'm saying is that the whole notion of beings of real, pure chaotic evil seems silly to me. Not because I can't imagine how they might physically exist, but because I can't imagine how they function rationally. Pure chaotic evil isn't even remotely rational, so how can a rational society be built upon it?

I think the way to make it work best is to make them evil primarily, and chaotic secondarily. When forced with a dilemma where they must choose between the two, they pick evil. Thus there is some order and cooperation among demons as it serves their purposes, but only the bare minimum as suits self interest.

 

[Gizzard]

Bob's problem is that no matter what he does, he might end up getting his flaming red hinder kicked, because he has no way of knowing whether or not Suzy's on the level.

I think this gets back to the whole "superior intelligence" arguement; you can reduce this to game-mechanics. If Bobs stats are vastly superior to Suzys he's going to have a pretty good Sense Motive against her Bluff to tell when she is lying; or a pretty good Bluff of his own to manipulate her with.

Even if Bob isnt cool enough to win these contests 100% of the time, he knows he only has to win one to make his point.

Why is it that with the rest of the multiverse unconquered, that Orcus, Demogorgon, Graz'zt and all the rest haven't said, 'You know, we are being (chaotic) stupid. We could all advance our various agenda's better if we just formed an alliance and acted together out of mutual self-interest.

I would guess that speech has been given billions of times in The Abyss. But its not really a convincing proposition to a being with a WIS of 30. I bet it works better down in the Succubus ranks though. ;-)

For demons, winning just means surviving, and possibly becoming a little more powerful when the opportunity presents itself.

I think this is the glue that holds everything together. In order to survive I can either achieve some measure of power and wield it ruthlessly against my foes, or I can keep my head down and my nose clean and try to duck any sort of responsibility at all. I imagine that there are a large number of Demons using this 9-to-5 strategy any given century during eternity. ;-)

 

[barsoomcore]

I posit that chaos and intelligence are opposed. What do you think of that?

I think it is sheer brilliance. It's pretty much what I've been groping for all along. You and Celebrim, man. Just show up and hand me what I'm trying to say.

Yes, intelligence and chaos are opposed, just as creativity and law are opposed. Just as compassion and evil, and self-interest and good are all opposed. Us poor humans, caught in the middle.

I think it's necessary for evil to take clear precedence over chaos for demons to make sense. You seem to be focusing on chaos. The two concepts are actually slightly contradictory.

What I'm clearly failing to focus on is the contradiction itself. That is, the contradictory nature of these beings. I suspect you could make arguments for pretty much any alignment, actually. Taken to its pure state it becomes irrational. We don't say that about Good, of course, because who wants Good kooks?

I think the way to make it work best is to make them evil primarily, and chaotic secondarily. When forced with a dilemma where they must choose between the two, they pick evil. Thus there is some order and cooperation among demons as it serves their purposes, but only the bare minimum as suits self interest.

Now that will work. I'd much rather just say that demons are, for example, shoggoths, from CoC, or mean Chaos Beasts, or something.

Now I don't use alignment, or the Outer Planes, or demons or devils at all in my campaign, so this is all intellectual frippery for me. I've certainly enjoyed it!

 

[coyote6]

I'm thinking that Henry's right -- the core difference of opinions is tied up in differing opinions about what it means to be Chaotic Evil, and exactly how "pure" a demon's CE-ness is. I think kenjib's & takyris' (and, tagging along, my) opinions about the basis -- alignment -- are simply different than The Serge's, UK's, etc.

(and, of course, barsoomcore thinks CE's just silly; a notion with which I have to agree, really, but alas, there are plenty of silly people in the world, so why not in fictional game worlds? Especially if it gives you nasty critters to fight. )

There's also possibly a related (at least it strikes me as related) disagreement about the underlying cosmology behind all these embodiments of chaos and evil living in the Abyss. To wit: are demons some sort of embodiement of Chaos and Evil, or are they just beings that are chaotic and evil by nature and nurture?

In any case, it's been an interesting discussion so far. But it's almost time to leave work . . .

PS: A couple of times, I've thought of Green Ronin's cosmology (as presented Book of the Righteous, Armies of the Abyss, etc.); if you haven't read BotR, I highly recommend it. Very interesting cosmology.

 

[barsoomcore]

(and, of course, barsoomcore thinks CE's just silly; a notion with which I have to agree, really, but alas, there are plenty of silly people in the world, so why not in fictional game worlds? Especially if it gives you nasty critters to fight. )

Oh, I certainly have no right to throw stones on the silliness front. I run a campaign with ironclad airships that fly because they have a special metal in them that develop anti-gravity when heated. Is that sillier than CE? Well, alright, you got me there.