The Call of the World Builder

[Spatula]

On the Demogorgon thing.

Look, I'm simply repeating canon here. I didn't make this up. Demogorgon became prince of demons by kicking the ass of every demon that challenged him.

But, seriously, if you think that demons, the lords of the chaotic abyss would actually bend knee to someone because they talk better, AND, you think that Demogorgon is the one to do this, more power to you. Me, I think that the Abyss is a place where, if you are weaker, you are fodder. The strongest survive and rule.

Considering that's how Chaotic Evil is defined in the game, I'm really wondering how you define it.

Well, any demon lord probably rules more through fear and intimidation than through diplomacy, because they are pure evil, after all. But anyway what I think that you're missing is that just because one fights their way to the top, does not mean that one does it through 1-on-1 duels on a featureless plain. If I were a CE hyper-intelligent demon I would fight as dirty as possible, anticipating that my opponent will attempt to do the same. How does Demogorgon defeat a 60 HD Balor that wants to take over his realm? He fights on his home turf, he calls in his own 60 HD Balors, he throws minions at his foe to weaken him, he uses magics to weaken his foe, he prepares himself against the expected attacks of the Balor, and so on. More than likely, he eliminates any demon that appears to be a serious rival before it gets to that point, because he's not stupid.

 

[DandD]

And why doesn't the 60 HD Balor who works for Demogorgon not simply overthrow Demogorgon? Or more precisely, the group of 60 HD Balors... Oh, and the 60 HD Balors would all have higher intelligence scores than Demogorgon would, simply through virtue of having more ability score modifiers.

In the end, just don't think about it, nor apply the rules as equivalent for real physics. They don't work. Not at all.

 

[katahn]

And why doesn't the 60 HD Balor who works for Demogorgon not simply overthrow Demogorgon? Or more precisely, the group of 60 HD Balors... Oh, and the 60 HD Balors would all have higher intelligence scores than Demogorgon would, simply through virtue of having more ability score modifiers.

In the end, just don't think about it, nor apply the rules as equivalent for real physics. They don't work. Not at all.

Instead of starting from the explanation, start from the result and work backwards.

1. We know Demogorgon is the big badass demon lord of the Abyss.

2. We know Demogorgon defeated the other demon lords to earn his station/reputation.

3. We can presume that Demogorgon has balors and other ultra-powerful demons among his underlings.

4. We know that Demogorgon is weaker as an individual than many of the other demon lords and certainly weaker than some of the ultra-powerful balors out there.

Now we cannot change things that are known. Those are our start points, those are the things that are given. Of the four points above the fourth is the where things appear to be incongruent, so if we are able to craft an explanation for the fourth that doesn't contradict anything we already know or is published in WotC canon, we should be ok.

Possible explanations:
1. Demogorgon created or oversaw the creation of the Balors and thus has a kind of power over them they cannot overcome.

2. Either due to creating them, or some other means, Demogorgon has knowledge of the ultra-powerful balors' true names. This knowledge ensures they cannot act directly against him and must obey him for fear of being destroyed.

3. In his conflicts with the other demon lords, Demogorgon was a superior tactician and strategist with more capable and effective demonic armies than his enemies.

4. Demogorgon in the past may have been significantly more powerful than he is now and his current lack of power is because he consumed so much of it beating the other demon lords. The other lords may or may not be aware of this, and if aware of it either don't want to advertise the fact they could get worn down too or don't want to risk expending too much of their personal power in a conflict they might not win.

However you elect to explain it, the fact remains Demogorgon has the stats he has (unless you house-rule it) and he has the position/status he has (unless you house-rule it). So rather than endlessly ranting about how it is impossible... figure out how it could be possible and get on with the game. Alternatively, if you don't feel like figuring out how it could be possible, either buff Demo's stats to where he could be in charge or write up some story about how the demon lord you think should be in charge kicked him in the nards and stole his lunch money.

 

[I'm A Banana]

In the end, just don't think about it, nor apply the rules as equivalent for real physics. They don't work. Not at all.

Naaah, they work fine.

Why don't a group of balors overthrow Demogorgon? They're chaos and destruction incarnate, they just keep beating each other up, and Demogorgon, as a spirit of strife and conflict, just makes that all the easier. His personal power is more than enough to beat aside any lone bruised and bloodied balor that manage to claw his way into his audience chamber.

There's also the metaphysical reason: Balors like most of what Demogorgon does, and what's to say that being a Demon Prince is all that great shakes? Certainly no one is in much of a hurry to take over the aquatic domains much...

There's SCADS of reasons why that doesn't happen.

A monster is more than just its stats, after all -- its place in the world and how it behaves and its own motives all give it reasons not to (or to be mostly unable to) blast away Demogorgon. If you want it that way. Of course, if you're bored of Demogorgon, it's still "believable" that something else can overthrow him.

 

[DandD]

So rather than endlessly ranting about how it is impossible... figure out how it could be possible and get on with the game. Alternatively, if you don't feel like figuring out how it could be possible, either buff Demo's stats to where he could be in charge or write up some story about how the demon lord you think should be in charge kicked him in the nards and stole his lunch money.

Nah, I'm doing the easiest way, and the most funniest too. I won't apply these rules as assinine physics-equivalent. No discrepancies at all. Why should I think about 60 HD Balors that don't overthrow Demogorgon at all? They don't exist. Simple as that. They're not possible, nor will they ever come up on my table. This has the immense benefit that I don't have to modify Demogorgon's stats and re-configure his ability scores, his skill points, his saves, his special abilities, his immunities, his feat selection, his epic qualities, and so on, to make him be able to stand a chance against any 60 HD demon usurper. The game gets fine, without ever thinking how it is possible if the rules were the physics of the world. They're not.
And whoever will try to convince me to be a simulationist gets dices thrown at him.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The game gets fine, without ever thinking how it is possible if the rules were the physics of the world. They're not.
And whoever will try to convince me to be a simulationist gets dices thrown at him.

I don't really know why you're resorting to perjorative condemnations of gaming styles that are different from yours.

It's really possible to satisfy both, here.

There's no reason to be a jerk about it.

 

[DandD]

Don't worry, you're not at my game table, and you won't try to convince me to apply the gaming rules in a simulationist way, therefore, I won't throw dices at you.

 

[Just Another User]

Wow.

For the third time. I'm NOT MAKING THIS UP. I've got Dragon 357 sitting in front of me as I type this. In it, we have a Demonomicon article detailing the history of Demogorgon in the default setting. Now, unless James Jacobs didn't do his homework, THIS IS HOW IT IS IN D&D. Not in your game, maybe not in my game, but in the DEFAULT SETTING.

*Shrug* it would not be the first time than a Dragon article was wrong.

But let's look at the "facts".
a) Demogorgon is the prince of demons
b) Demogorgon is not the most "combat" powerful demon in existence (or is it? Just because a demon can exist it doesn't mean it actually exist (i.e. advanced Balor)
c) so there must be a reason why Demogorgon is (still) the boss.

Maybe once he was stronger and got weaker for some reason, but the other demons don't know it and he rule by his reputation of badass alone. maybe the other demons knows or suspect but don't attack him because they know if they defeat him then they would have to defeat all the other Balor, also there is a blood war going on, if Demogorgon fall the devils could take the occasion to attack while the demons kill each other, Balor are choatic evil but they also have 24 int and wis, they are not morons. Actually it is even possible that Demogorgon still rule exactly because he is not the most powerful , if he was the strongest then whoever defeat him would be so more powerful than the others that nobody would dare attack him, but if demogorgon is weaker than whoever defeat him would have against all the other high ranks demons that believe they have a shot to beat him.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Don't worry, you're not at my game table, and you won't try to convince me to apply the gaming rules in a simulationist way, therefore, I won't throw dices at you.

Yeah, but nobody ever said you had to do anything.

Criminey, mang, people say "This feature doesn't break believabilty necessarily," and your response is "Yes it does, I just don't care, and you do, because you're one of those contemptable simulationist fools who I have been forced to bear the burden of before."

You actually AGREE with the poster! It's not an issue!

You don't need to be a jerk. You could say something constructive, or nothing at all.

 

[DandD]

This thread is talking about how unnecessary or counter-intuitive some old D&D-rules are especially for world-creating. I say that the rules for creating 60 HD Balors are rubbish, and creating a super-modified Demogorgon to counter the threat of 60 HD-Balor usurpers is just hard work that doesn't pay out at all. I don't apply them, because I recognize them as utterly rubbish. You defend them, because you think they're good and can be applied for a consistent world.
And in the end, we now have a discussion about how Demogorgon needs to be able to outwit and outstrenght a brutal 60 HD-epic Balor, without Demogorgon losing his place as one of most well-known top-dogs in the Abyss, with some explanation that are just rule-less hand-waving from the Gamemaster, which in turn makes the idea of "simulationistic" rules pointless to begin with. Hah.