D&D General The Charisma Conundrum

[bedir than]

"You said you swung your rapier full force so you get minuses" makes no sense, but it's basically what's described here.

 

[Ancalagon]

It's very hard to roleplay more charismatically (or wisely, or smartly) than what you actually are.

One method is the third person/objective driven description. For example

"My character attempts to charm the elven alchemist. I flatter the excellence of his glass work and imply I may have information he needs"

This way, the player tells you what they want to happen, without having to be able to do it themselves.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's very hard to roleplay more charismatically (or wisely, or smartly) than what you actually are.

One method is the third person/objective driven description. For example

"My character attempts to charm the elven alchemist. I flatter the excellence of his glass work and imply I may have information he needs"

This way, the player tells you what they want to happen, without having to be able to do it themselves.

I really like this advice!

 

[CreamCloud0]

i have a suspicion this thread might respark the 'should there be social mechanics' thread because this is exactly the sort of situation people meant when they said they don't want these sorts of things to be left to up to GM judgement.

 

[FrogReaver]

i have a suspicion this thread might respark the 'should there be social mechanics' thread because this is exactly the sort of situation people meant when they said they don't want these sorts of things to be left to up to GM judgement.

Technically we do have social mechanics. Intimidate +charisma vs dc is a social mechanic

But yes, I know what you mean.

 

[niklinna]

It sounds to me like, rather than using this as an opportunity to help Doug learn how to be more charismatic, giving him tips and feedback, you are instead using it as an excuse to dump on him for being weak in an area he has expressed some interest/hope in improving. You are doing him no favors. Present him with NPCs his character has reason to take interest in, to help, to win over, and who in turn have an interest in him, then make it clear how they respond to his roleplaying and why, and don't just throw mechanical penalties on rolls because the guy is shy or awkward.

 

[FrogReaver]

Anyone else wonder why OP doesn’t ever provide actual examples of what is happening in game and what the player did? Instead it’s always broad and exaggerated generalizations.

 

[niklinna]

It couldn't be a vague need to expound ideas about how people just suck and need to be lorded over, so as to feel superior, could it?

 

[prabe]

It couldn't be a vague need to expound ideas about how people just suck and need to be lorded over, so as to feel superior, could it?

Nothing vague, here.

 

[Mort]

Doug is the classic shy, awkward, not social sort of guy....he got into D&D as one of the other players is his sister. So when they make new characters, Doug dives into making a bard character so he can be the "Face" of the party. I know this will not work out.....

Approaching the situation already convinced it will fail? That's not a good way to start out. How about, instead, thinking of ways to help Doug? And ways to alter your approach?

And sure enough when the game starts, Doug's character stays way in the back and does not role play or interact with any NPCs. Other then his sister, he does not speak much to anyone at the table. So he is sure not playing the Faceman of the group.....but he "wants to". The most he does is when the adventure calls for something like a charisma check he will roll that.

So? If he rolls when appropriate, that's how some people game. Why do you hold the face man to a higher standard than the muscle? I mean, you don't judge the muscle's success by how much the PLAYER can dead lift, do you?

So, over the course of the next three games...Doug comes out of his shell a bit. He make some very sad attempts to role play the Faceman, but as he has very little real life charisma, he does this very poorly.

It sounds like you're so ready for him to fail you're looking for ways for him to do so. Why not help him succeed instead?

So all NPCs react badly to Doug's character, and when the rolls come up, he makes minuses for himself by his bad style of role play. And he has no interest in talking about it...or anything...and refuses to change.

Bad style of role play? By what standard, why are you imposing minuses? His charisma is what his stat says.

So....today....the other three players(not Doug or his sister) come to me after the game to talk about this. They want me to just "let Doug be the Face". So that when role playing, no matter what Doug says "for real", all NPCs act like his character is the Greatest Guy of All Time...and he never gets a minus to a roll.

I said no. I require players to put at least a little effort into role playing or just play the dull robotic way. As soon as a player starts to role play, I hold them to the high standard.

It sounds like you hold charisma to a much higher standard. That's the real problem.

And this is the Question as Old as the Game: what to do about the players that won't....or can't play the character they "want to be"? If the player "wants to be" something...does the DM alter game reality to make it so? Or not?

If a player with a Low Charisma Score "wants" to play a Faceman, do you as the DM "just make it happen"? I'm not a fan....and worse I think it's harmful. Sure Doug could mumble something and I could have NPCs go all "wow" and I could completely prop Doug up as a False Faceman. And sure he will "feel good" for a few seconds. But it won't be real. He will KNOW he just mumbled some random words.....and he will KNOW I just "made the NPCs fo all 'wow' " just because he wanted me too. So he "wants to play a Faceman", but the only way he can do it is a completely false way. And I don't think that is good or healthy.

It's not healthy? Really? For me as long as the player can tell me what he wants to accomplish, that's more than enough. I don't expect them to be actually eloquent, persuasive, etc. just like I don't expect the fighter to actually know how to swing a sword or the wizard to actually know how to cast fireball.