The consolidation going on

[Mystic Eye]

Originally posted by d20books:Bottled Mystic Imp Eyes?

Johnathan

Heheh, we went through this when we took on the Bluffside setting from Thunderhead Games. I cannot recall all the new names that cropped up. Mystic Thunder Head, Mystic Eye Thunder, all kinds of stuff.

And I second Hal's comment on an earlier post. We are no where near a "big" company but we are striving to make a better place for us and our partners in this tight market place.

We also do not have any desire to become the next Impressions or Osseum. We just want a small family of fellow publishers who put out quality work in order to provide a great offering to consumers, retailers, and distributors. Bard's Productions, Open World Press, and our alliances with EN publishing and Ronin Arts are a great start. Adding Gaming Frontiers will allow, as it always has, a great place for some of these publishers to show case original content and show off their talents.

 

[trancejeremy]

This is a odd comment, while the larger companies put out more books so more may be great and more less then great simply due to having more books available to state that they often put out lousy product is a huge over generalization (IMHO) and for the record I do not think MEG is a "larger company" yet but we are growing .

Well, to pick on the 3 companies I think of as "big", Mongoose, AEG, and FFG. They probably put out what, 2-3 books a month? (more for Mongoose).

How many are actually good? Maybe 1 a month is actually good, the rest being mediocre at best. (I could say the same of WOTC, actually). In Mongoose's case, they apparently don't even bother to run the manuscript through a spell checker. AEG's one word books often more resemble magazines than books, poorly focused and rushed. FFG only seems to be able to focus on one setting or book at once, with the rest suffering for it (and I haven't been at all impressed by their generic stuff).

They only rarely put out a truly "great" product. Mongoose has Slaine, FFG has Midnight, and AEG has, uh, well, I'm sure they'll do it someday.

Most of the quality stuff is done by the middle and lower tier companies. Because they try harder. Rather than focusing on pumping out so many books a month, each book a company works on gets their best effort. Even when the physical presentation isn't the best, the effort put into the product shows when you actually use it.

IMHO, anyway.

 

[Corinth]

AEG has Spycraft and Stargate SG-1.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Wow. I so disagree with FFG not putting out quality stuff.

I think that their books are usually some of the better material out on the market and enjoy using them on an almost weekly basis. The different schools from the various Path of Books, the whole concept of the Legendary PrC and other goods have all made it into my campaign at one point or another if nothing else than as something for the PC's to seek out.

Now Mongoose for me is a hit or miss. That whole 3.5 thing on the drow book when it had 3.0 NPCs and spell listings is pretty much a lie and if Psion is correct, they went about making the NPC's via lazy method with a NPC geneator. On the other hand, I truly enjoyed Q. Drow, Q. Sorcerer, Q. Monk and other books so like I said, hit or miss.

AEG? Well, someone's already mentioned Spycraft and Stargate, and everyone's entitled to their opinion of the one word books but I enjoyed pretty much everything past Mercenaries. And of course, let's not forget Swashbuckling Adventuers and Legend of the Five Rings. Those latest books have tied into the card game and fiction nicely but are perhaps a little too expensive for the average fan.

 

[Nellisir]

What exactly is a small company in the d20 pond and what's a large one? Is Paradigm for example, small or large? They have a core setting, several interlink books, two licenses with AEG, tons or RPGA product, etc..., but not a lot of regular product hitting the shelves on a regular basis. Does this make them small or ?

And it's not necessarily companies merging either. Look at Troll Lord who helped pick up Path of the Magi from Citizen Games and work with Kenzer and Company and is working with Necromancer Games.

I think the big companies are Atlas, WotC, WW/SSS, AEG, FFG, and Mongoose. Middle tier companies include Bastion, Paradigm, Green Ronin, Sovereign Press, Troll Lords, Malhavok (online), MEG, and EN World. Third tier companies are most everyone else.

Put another way, first tier companies could retool and keep going without d20/OGL, usually by focusing on other existing properties. Most of the 2nd tier companies came into play with d20/OGL, and would probably fold or have to retool very quickly if d20/OGL disappeared. Most 3rd-tier companies would disappear, or reinvent themselves as fan sites with free material.

Just my view
Nell.

 

[Psion]

I think that their books are usually some of the better material out on the market and enjoy using them on an almost weekly basis.

I find the Lore and School series being headed up by Kevin Wilson to be top notch. And Midnight seems to be well done (though I am not following it).

However, with some notable exceptions (like Monsters Handbook), I have been underwhelmed by their generic hardbounds. Dungeoncraft was lackluster and really only helpful for beginning DMs. Sorcery & Steam had a great first chapter (which I bet Lizard wrote), but the rest of the book seemed like a bunch of individual game items poured into the book with little coordination or over-arching connectedness. The path books have a few diamonds in a lot of rough; their quality is haphazard, again apparently due to a number of otherwise decent authors with little coordination and their own ideas on how things ought to be done. The classes are very good in some books but off the mark in others (path of magic classes where very strong, but those is PotSword were excellent.) I really love the approach of "detachable organizations" with prestige classes, but they have multiple methods of doing organizations and the method of schools seems ridiculous and unjusitified. The additional material also varies widely in quality. Frex, the bardic methods material in path of magic is great and IMO the shot in the arm that bards needed, but IMO the additional material did nothing for wizards and sorcerers (fortunately, the Quint books by Mongoose regarding those two classes are among the best.) Legendary classes are a great concept, but despite their power, asking a spellcaster to give up all of their spellcasting advancement totally guts a class.

Now Mongoose for me is a hit or miss. That whole 3.5 thing on the drow book when it had 3.0 NPCs and spell listings is pretty much a lie and if Psion is correct, they went about making the NPC's via lazy method with a NPC geneator. On the other hand, I truly enjoyed Q. Drow, Q. Sorcerer, Q. Monk and other books so like I said, hit or miss.

Yeah. My faves are Sorcerer, Wizard, Monk, and Rogue. I still regret buying some others and have overcome my "gotta have it all" mentality and am now only buying them selectively. Alas, though the EA series was once my favorite series by mongoose, they have been relegated to this status too.

AEG? Well, someone's already mentioned Spycraft and Stargate, and everyone's entitled to their opinion of the one word books but I enjoyed pretty much everything past Mercenaries.

I find most one-word books pretty good; their only crime seems to be 1) the earlier books (War and before) and 2) that they often tread on territory that WotC, Malhavoc, of Green Ronin do a bit better (Good < Book of Hallowed Might, Evil < BoVD and Unholy Warrior's Handbook, Monster's crossbreeds < Bastard & Bloodlines, etc.)

I initially liked Magic, but I am finding despite my initial warmth to it, I don't get much use out of it, primarily because of the approach. I just cannot find room for that many new core classes (the same thing applies to those in recent Dragons and FFG's class books.) I have no major complaints on Mercenaries, Monster, Good, Wilds, Relics, and Undead and use them as needed. Toolbox remains in my "primary" bookcase of stuff I want close at hand during a game it is so useful. Though I did see some flaws in Dragons, I just pulled it out to use it last night. In short, though I don't think they are perfect, I think they have come a long way since War

And of course, let's not forget Swashbuckling Adventuers and Legend of the Five Rings. Those latest books have tied into the card game and fiction nicely but are perhaps a little too expensive for the average fan.

L5R is good quality, but I find that the supplement books aren't really all that essential to run the game, but at least I can live with the approach. SA I like a little less. I liked the fighting styles of the original book, but think that in retrospect, they should have used class based defense bonuses instead of shuffling it off to feats, and many new classes in it are redundant (noble AND courtier, guys?). The follow on books I don't have many of (AEG has wisely stuck to not sending them too me), but the one I do have seems to also go overboard on the "new core class" thing.

I guess I can sort of see where Jeremy is coming from, though the reasons I would attribute it to are different. I don't think it is because they are "just trying to pump out" books. I think it the problem, if it exists, is primarily editorial and conceptual. AEG's earlier books seems sort of scattershot because despite tapping some decent authors, they sort of just took individual peices and poured them into a book, not unlike FFGs path books. I think their later books are better because they have more editorial coordination and focus, and use fewer authors. OTOH, it seems like FFG is going through the same editorial growing pains that AEG (mainly their topic line) went through. Their Path books, Sorcery and Steam, etc., are all very scattershot, though there books with fewer auhtors and/or tighter editorial focus (Monsters Handbook, Lore and School series) seem to be better in quality.

 

[Mytholder]

Sorcery & Steam had a great first chapter (which I bet Lizard wrote)

Nope. Me.

But having my writing mistaken for Lizard's is a very nice compliment, so cheers.

 

[Psion]

Nope. Me.

But having my writing mistaken for Lizard's is a very nice compliment, so cheers.

Cool. I've seen Lizard be responsible for some pretty evocative writing in the past, and thought some of the stuff was pretty evocative, so sorta put two and two together and got three.

But kudos for writing it. I really dig the ideas, like the clockwork empire/dungoen thing.

 

[johnsemlak]

To try to steer back to the topic of consolidation, I'm wondering if a perceived higher or lower level of quality of certain companies by the internet community will have much affect on which, if any, companies get affected.

In the end it's which companies have good sales, and there seem to be a lot of factors in that.

Several people have mentioned that numerous companies have 'hit and miss' quality. I think that's in part because d20 authors are mostly freelance, and they work for a lot of different companies, and many companies rarely have a consistant line up of authors. Having different authors not only leads to inconsisitent quality (perceived or otherwise) but also inconsistant format and style (probably a more significant factor).

To me, one of the only d20 companies that seems to be perceived as better than the others is Malhavoc Press, and that's because it's authors are big names, and are mostly by one person.

Of course, consolidation have end up happening just as a cost cutting measure, and not be indicative of poor sales by the companies involve.

 

[MrFilthyIke]

To me, one of the only d20 companies that seems to be perceived as better than the others is Malhavoc Press, and that's because it's authors are big names, and are mostly by one person.

Maybe it's not Big Names that people want, but CONSITENT quality. If an author proves to be a good writer/designer, they tend to develop a following (ie Mr Cook) of dedicated fans looking for guaranteed quality, and the best bang for their buck. I'm guilty of looking to see who wrote a book, and using that as one of the factors towards buying said product.

Just my copper pieces.

edited: to fix my bad spelling