The Controller Role Doesn't Exist

Scribble said:
tactics is the best way to play the game.

Rules mastery is a game before the actual game ever starts.

You're getting bogged down in semantics. Here, let me try and clarify:

Rules Mastery(insofar as I use it in this thread): Intimite knowledge of how the game is played. That is, mastery (control, knowledge, awareness) of the rules. This can exist for any game.

Rules Mastery leads directly to increased success. This is also true of any game. Once you know what causes a foul, you're less likely to provoke one. Once you are familiar with the hands you can have and the cards in a deck, you're more likely to make good choices.

D&D is concerned with providing a challenge that will consume almost all of your characters' resources over a number of encounters. This is where the "challenge" of D&D comes from -- how many resources, how quickly they are depleted, and what you have left to face the next encounter. When you run out of resources just as you end an adventure, and, depending on luck, not earlier, this is "good pacing," because it creates that tension between failure and success, that chance that you might not "win," that your heroes might fail. This is fun.

As a D&D player gains rules mastery, they are able to make decisions that decrease the consumption of their resources. Namely, they end encounters faster and increase their own ability to defend their resources.

This decreases the challenge of the game. This results in ending an adventure with a larger share of your resources. This is "poor pacing" because it doesn't create that tension between failure and success, your victory is almost assured, and you know your hero won't fail unless you roll absurdly low over and over again. This is not so much fun.

Thus, in order to maintain the same pacing, and to retain the fun of the game, you need to be able to challenge a player with a high level of rules mastery. This is largely done through increasing the rate at which your resources are sapped: damage is increased, attack values go up, etc.

Now, this causes problems when someone with little or no rules mastery uses the same challenge. They loose resources FASTER than they should. This results in "poor pacing" on the other side: your defeat is almost assured, and you know you will fail unless you roll absurdly high over and over again. This is pretty much the opposite of fun.

Other games avoid this by being competitive and giving high randomization. If your rules mastery is about the same as your buddy's rules mastery, then you'll be a pretty good challenge for each other. But get a novice and an expert in the room, and it'll be less fun. Randomization also helps because it makes rules mastery irrelevant. No matter how many +1's you can eke out, they won't matter when the d1000 rolls.

In D&D, the competitve angle is basically erased. This is a co-op game. At low levels, randomization is okay. A 1st level character won't have a much greater advantage than their friend, regardless of how familiar they are with the rules. However, as your level increases, it reaches the point (historically, at around level 10) where your bonuses can affect your character more than the d20 roll does.

This has been a large part of why high-level D&D has been such a pain in the dragonbewbs for 3 editions.

This means that, starting at mid-levels, but potentially even earlier (depending on how big and how frequent and how stack-able the bonuses are), a player with rules mastery will either be adequately challenged, or using the game as a cakewalk, while, perhaps in the same party, a player without rules mastery will either be completely outclassed, or they'll be adequately challenged.

4e has claimed that they won't be very concerned with "rules mastery," presumably leveling the playing field. If mastering the rules doesn't give you any remarkable advantage over someone who is just into the game, you can both be adequately challenged.

However, a game that does that CANNOT also reward "effective tactics" very highly. Because "effective tactics" come from mastery of the rules.

And if the Controller rewards effective tactics highly, then it will re-introduce this really vile problem into the system again.

So if the reason that the there is only one Controller in the PH is because they are somehow a "more advanced" role, by the end of 4e, we will undoubtedly have problems where the masters will continually outclass the less-masterful. Wizards will be the most powerful class in the game "if played right." The monster system will break down as wizards get more effective spells and as people get more familiar with the rules. Wizards and other controllers will become more essential, because they can take on more threats without suffering the same problems. And when people new to the game play wizards, it will be disasterous as the system ASSUMES that a wizard player will use good tactics, and they don't, and they get crushed.

Because that is one of the core problems with the game that 4e is trying to fix, I really don't think that they're going to go down that route.

Rather, I think that the reason there's only one controller is because by the time the initial class layout was done, there just happened to be only one controller, and they didn't bother to fix it because of the idea of avoiding needless symmetry. Whereas specifically creating a cleric alternative was probably a high priority, not due to symmetry, but to fix the problem with "needing a cleric." Because there wasn't a problem with "needing" any other class, it's been overlooked. Because the designers might not have identified the REAL problem hiding behind the "needing a cleric" problem until it was too late to go back and re-assess the list of classes. This problem is fixed "in post," or in the second PH or online, or whatever.

If the reason is more because "Wizards are slightly harder to get REALLY good at playing!", the problem will run a whole heck of a lot deeper than there only being one controller in the PH.
 

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Scribble said:
My guess is this is because the controller will be the most "difficult" class to learn to use most effectively.

I mean with something like a striker, sure it might take some getting used to to figure out who the best target to hit with your extra damage is... But damage always helps a situation...

A controller on the other hand puts a wall in the wrong place? Suddenly you just gave your enemy a cover bonus and you're cut off from the priest... oops...

That's the way it has always been, in every edition, and I hope that tradition stays. A poorly run wizard can blow up the party at almost every level. I've seen novice players sleep, slow, fireball, and chain-lightning their party in frighteningly innovative ways. It's hard work to play a wizard (harder in earlier editions) but the rewards are absolutely corrupting power!!!!.

If this is true, and I think you are correct, then I'm relieved that 4E is still D&D.
 

Moon-Lancer said:
They should have replaced warlock with druid and made the druid a controller with plant, stone, and wind shaping spells. d&d i feel always benefited from archetypes and symmetry.
It's not about symmetry, it's about having choices. Requiring parties to have a wizard in order to be balanced is poor form, especially after all the talk about how we've been freed from needing a cleric.

I agree that the druid (as a controller) should have replaced the warlock in the PHB1.
 

I thought they said that while the Warlock is a striker, it does have some controller-like function. I think they called it Mire of Minaurous or something like that. Something that creates a toxic mire to dissuade enemies. Maybe roles are still in place, just more fluid. Like, for instance, a Greatsword fighter might act more like a Striker, a Star Pact warlock may be more of a Controller (Fear effects, as the Doomspeaker Paragon Path). Still, I get the frustration. Why is it the only role with one class? Slightly annoying. It would be nice to play a controller without multi-classing for Wall of Ice.
 

1. If a definition of a controller is one who "limits what an enemy can do on the battlefield" then what a defender does can be described as "melee range controlling" if one wanted to torture and twist definitions sufficiently.

That's not what a controller does, though. A controller tells enemies what they can do. A defender makes himself a target. Range doesn't matter, and neither does the size of the effect. What matters is what gets done, not how it is done.

Really, I'm just griding this axe because it's kind of getting under my skin how many different idiosyncratic definitions of the different roles we're getting, and I think that's at the core of the OP's post. If you listen to the posters (especially recently), the paladin is a striker because he gets to deal auto-damage at a range. But that's not what a striker DOES (thouguh many strikers may share that similarity).
 

Defenders influence enemies to attack them in melee range. Defenders are built to take a lot of attempted attacks.

Controllers influence the battle by directly altering circumstances, like wiping out groups of weak enemies or sliding enemies around at range or altering terrain. They are designed to crumple when hit.

All classes have powers and abilities outside their role. That is why it is possible to have two martial strikers, Defenders who Heal and do damage.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
That's not what a controller does, though. A controller tells enemies what they can do. A defender makes himself a target. Range doesn't matter, and neither does the size of the effect. What matters is what gets done, not how it is done.

Really, I'm just griding this axe because it's kind of getting under my skin how many different idiosyncratic definitions of the different roles we're getting, and I think that's at the core of the OP's post. If you listen to the posters (especially recently), the paladin is a striker because he gets to deal auto-damage at a range. But that's not what a striker DOES (thouguh many strikers may share that similarity).

What I don't understand is why you are grinding this axe in my skull when I am basically agreeing with you.

The differences between a controller and a defender in terms of playstyle and feel seem pretty distinct to me. However if one wanted to twist and stretch definitions and terms sufficiently there is something to be said for the validity of a defender being a "melee controller" and vice-versa.

Please understand here, I am not saying there is literally no difference between a defender and a controller. I'm just acknowledging that at a very, very, very, VERY high level they perform similar sorts of tasks.
 

Clearly, some classes are more 'hybrid' than others, where role is concerned, even in the PH. The Paladin has some Leader functions (Lay on Hands, Defender-through-buffing) in addition to his primary Defender role. Alternatively, you can state this as a Paladin seems to use the means of a Leader (buffing/healing) to accomplish the ends of a Defender, though I do not favor this interpretation as much.

The Wizard's spells at first level (that we have seen) do not seem, by and large, very Controller-oriented. Most are pure damage (in many cases, area damage), though Ray of Frost is clearly Controller-oriented. However, I do recall one higher-level power, the Firefrost attack, that not only damages creatures in an area, and debuffs them (was it weaken), it also leaves a zone on the map that damages anyone who is in it. Other abilities (particularly Rogue, Warlord, and Warlock abilities) could maneuver several mobs into that zone to take more damage.

The Warlock seems, at first glance, to be the most 'controller' of the strikers. Various debuffs and a smattering of zone effects show up, but they seem supplemental at best.

I think I could buy the argument that the Wizard is not the pure expression of a Controller that many people seem to envision him as, and this misconception can be laid to the fact that he is the only Controller called as such in the PHB. It is very easy to reason from 'only Controller extant' to 'archetype for Controller'. From the described role, I think that Psions (particularly a Telepath) and, yes, Nature/Weather Druids would be a much purer expression of a Controller in 4E.
 

Now you could open up your PHB and go down every spell in the wizard's arsenal and gasp: That's a defender power! That's a striker power! That's a leader power! and frown and fuss that wizards have Web, Prismatic Ray, and Heroism.

I think the main idea of the Controller is that he changes the tide of the battle in a major way. He can do damage like a striker, keep the foes from hurting the party like a defender, and buff his party members like a leader. The problem is that while the other classes can perform their roles consistently, the wizard can only fulfill their role in a big, temporary way. When the going gets tough, the tough look back at their controllers and plead "do something!" And the controller reaches into his magic hat and pulls out...
 

Spatula said:
It's not about symmetry, it's about having choices. Requiring parties to have a wizard in order to be balanced is poor form, especially after all the talk about how we've been freed from needing a cleric.

True enough, but there were never a lot of people complaining that you had to have a wizard, even back in 2e when there wasn't an effective substitue for one. The problem with requiring a cleric was that lots of people don't want to play clerics, something filling the clerics role (at least as a healer) is pretty much required, and nothing in 3.x really substitutes well for them. Whereas most groups have someone who wants to play the wizard most of the time.
 

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