The Cunningly Disguised MMIV Preview

el-remmen · May 13, 2006

I love the format.

I concur with whoever said he wishes they'd redo the original MM like this.

Shemeska · May 13, 2006

Sammael said:
Let's not forget, though, that Guide to Hell contradicts much of Planescape,

Only with respect to Asmodeus are there really any big contradictions, and GtH's obsession there with Zoarastrianism has since been retconned back to rumor or entirely done away with in 3.x. The remainder of GtH wasn't all that bad and pretty orthodox with respect to PS, and its details on the Reckoning were pretty nice. The wacky Asmo stuff in GtH just tends to color opinions.

But we've hijacked the thread enough I think

Back to praising or condemning the MMIV statblock!

Sammael · May 13, 2006

D&D gods (excluding overgods) depend on worship to exist. A god that does not receive worship dies and his form drifts on the Astral. If we take this as a fact, then it is logical that D&D gods cannot predate their own worshipers. Thus, evil dragons existed before Tiamat, and it was their worship that actually created her. Unless, of course, she was an archfiend, in which case she would exist regardless of worship.

Ahem, back to the statblock. I prefer it to the old one, but there is always room for improvement. I want the Environment back in the stat block.

SidusLupus · May 13, 2006

If they redid the MM1 with the new format, and then fixed the errors... that would be awesome.

I'd buy it.

Thunderfoot · May 13, 2006

jstater said:
Why don't any of the spawn have a bonus to hit Venger? Isn't he Tiamat's worst enemy?

BWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!
:lol:

Ripzerai · May 13, 2006

Sammael said:
What would make the most sense is to switch Tiamat to be NE and remove her from Baator. Since this isn't happening, I maintain that a Lawful Evil entity/god would not (indeed, COULD not) create Chaotic Evil creatures.

She's not a personification of law, she's simply a goddess of evil who likes to impose discipline on her minions.

That Tiamat creates chaotic evil creatures has been canonical since at least the 1st edition MMI

(to quote from page 32) "She spawns all of evil dragonkind... When encountered in her lair, Tiamat will always have five consort/guards with her - one huge, adult male dragon of the white, black, green, blue and red types respectively."

So, to recap:

- She has chaotic evil consorts.
- With them, she spawns chaotic evil dragonkind.

Her own alignment, in this case, is irrelevant; she doesn't need to be NE to have both LE and CE children.

They take after their fathers.

D&D gods (excluding overgods) depend on worship to exist. A god that does not receive worship dies and his form drifts on the Astral. If we take this as a fact, then it is logical that D&D gods cannot predate their own worshipers.

Not necessarily true. Even assuming D&D gods do depend on worship to exist, they don't need to have been created by a particular set of worshippers. Tiamat, for example, could have been created by the worship of a primal race of dragons or dragonlike beings and, taking some of them as mates, could have created chromatic dragons. These chromatic dragons became her primary worshippers, but they weren't necessarily her first worshippers.

As another option, she might have been the goddess of salt water worshipped by the Babylonians, and only after she gave birth to the race of dragons (with her consort Kingu) did she become their goddess.

As still another option, she was the creation of the older god Io, who made her with the express purpose that she mother a new race of dragons.

Razz · May 13, 2006

I don't like the new look.

The stat block I can deal with, everything is there and fine.

The combat gear and treasure thing, a no no. That's just plain useless. The Knowledge thing, too much space used up for lazy DMs with no imagination whatsoever. Like I said millions of times before, D&D is no longer "Dungeons&Dragons" but seems to be known as "Dumb&Ditzy", since we are constantly receiving material that would help a 10 year old grasp things and make their active minds easier instead of actually make them do SOME work on their own games.

Encounter Sample, same crap. I don't need to be told, nor should anyone be told, how to use a monster in an encounter. The situation should never be the SAME and it should be tailored to whatever situation you want.

I like the "In Eberron/Faerun" sidebars. The Ecology and Society are always helpful so they're cool. Reminds me of 2E Monstrous Manual.

So far, Monster Manual IV looks like a book with a HUGE amount of wasted space and a HUGE amount of monsters we missed out on because of it. WotC is becoming really lame lately. So it looks like there will only be 112 monsters, probably less, because it seems each monster is going to take up TWO WHOLE pages (224 page book). Actually it is less than 112, let's not forget the miscellaneous information like index, CR table, and entry descriptions.

Kunimatyu · May 13, 2006

Razz said:
So far, Monster Manual IV looks like a book with a HUGE amount of wasted space and a HUGE amount of monsters we missed out on because of it. WotC is becoming really lame lately. So it looks like there will only be 112 monsters, probably less, because it seems each monster is going to take up TWO WHOLE pages (224 page book). Actually it is less than 112, let's not forget the miscellaneous information like index, CR table, and entry descriptions.

I doubt monsters without societies will have two-page spreads. And even then, I'm totally cool with them having two-page spreads if they list an advanced version of that creature too.

Pants · May 13, 2006

Shemeska said:
Either 'Planes of Law' or 'On Hallowed Ground' made a firm distinction between the two. Tiamat was on Avernus, and Takhisis was in her own divine domain in Baator (I don't recall which layer off the top of my head, but I can look it up).

Haven't read OHG, but Planes of Law was fairly vague on the subject from what I remember, with some rumors that the two might be the same. The 1e MotP was fairly straightforward, stating that they were the same.

If it IS true that Tiamat and Takhisis are different then that is truly the dumbest thing ever.

Back on topic:
I kinda like the new statblock. The society and ecology parts are nice, the treasure is meh, I have no strong feelings either way, but it looks really usable and if it speeds up play, then I'm all for it.