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The dark elf +2EL, The satyr +2EL but....
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<blockquote data-quote="Technik4" data-source="post: 1086430" data-attributes="member: 7211"><p>Ok, see above please. Heck, Genasi get a type change (to Outsider) and usually have equal stat adjustments to LA +0 races, along with minor spell-likes at they are LA +1. So trust me:</p><p></p><p>+2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha</p><p>and</p><p>+4 Hide, +4 Listen, +4 Move Silently, +4 Perform, +4 Spot</p><p></p><p>LA +1.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Getting the [Fey] type and Damage Reduction 5/Cold Iron is definitely worth at least LA +1. Again, compare them to Genasi or any other LA race that gains a new (non-humanoid) type. Its by and large more powerful because things like Charm Person, Hold Person, and others that specifically affect humanoids don't affect you. There aren't any good examples but you are living in the past if you think "just" 5 DR isn't good. For any type of warrior thats a good chance of ignoring 5 pts per swing, unless your opponent is specifically gunning for you (or happens to have that material). Check your modules, this is way huge.</p><p></p><p>LA +2 (total)</p><p></p><p>+4 Natural Armor and +10 Speed is easily worth LA +1. Compare to the Gray Orc featured in RoF who get little more than a wis bonus (with commensurate negatives) and +10 speed yet are LA +1.</p><p></p><p>LA +3 (total)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok, pipes are an optional LA +1 to the total.</p><p></p><p>Now, I realize that the more LAs you stack, the greater the bonuses have to be to justify them, but look at the following races and tell me they aren't at least a decent race:</p><p></p><p></p><p>Misc</p><p>+2 Dex, +2 Cha</p><p>+4 Hide, +4 Move Silently</p><p>[Fey] Subtype</p><p></p><p></p><p>Weirdos</p><p>+2 Int, +2 Wis</p><p>+4 Listen, +4 Perform, +4 Spot</p><p>+2 Nat. Armor</p><p>+10 Speed</p><p></p><p></p><p>Rockmen</p><p>+2 Con</p><p>+2 Nat. Armor </p><p>DR 5/Cold Iron</p><p>Natural Horn Attack</p><p></p><p>Each one of those are easily LA +1. The first makes great rogues, bards or sorcerors. The second can be a light-armored fighter, cleric, or wizard (probably multi) and the third is your heavy guy - fighter, barbarian, paladin, cleric, you name it. The satyr has all of those benefits put together. You compare them to a dark elf, allow me to put their stats by comparison (since you believe them merely a +2).</p><p></p><p>From 3.5 MM:</p><p></p><p>Drow Traits (Ex):</p><p>[Humanoid (Elf)]</p><p>+2 Int, +2 Cha</p><p>Base Speed 30 ft</p><p>Darkvision 120 feet</p><p>SR 11+class levels</p><p>Immunity to Sleep Spells and +2 bonus against enchantments</p><p>+2 bonus on Will saves against spells</p><p>+2 Listen, +2 Search, +2 Spot</p><p>Auto-Detect Secret Doors if within 5 ft.</p><p>Spell-like abilities: Dancing Lights, Darkness, Faerie Fire</p><p>Weapon Prof: Hand X-bow, Rapier, and Shortsword</p><p>Light Blindness</p><p>LA +2</p><p></p><p>Satyr Traits</p><p>[Fey]</p><p>+2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha</p><p>Base Speed 40 ft</p><p>Low-light Vision</p><p>Natural Armor +4</p><p>+4 Hide, +4 Listen, +4 Move Silently, +4 Perform, +4 Spot</p><p>Bonus Feat: Alertness</p><p>Natural Weapons: Headbutt (1d6)</p><p>Proficient with all Simple Weapons and Shortbow</p><p>Damage Reduction 5/cold iron</p><p>LA +2 (but you must take 5 levels of Fey)</p><p></p><p>Ok, you neglected to mention the bonus feat Alertness and the low-light vision. I think its blazingly clear that a Fey at LA +2 would be over-the heck-powered compared to a Dark Elf. All the Dark Elf has thats <strong>better</strong> is SR (and since the dark elf is 2 levels behind, that SR still isn't "awesome"). The skills are ridiculous to compare, even counting the auto-elf detection as 10 skill points (and it sure isn't worth that) the satyr is 4 points up. Thats not including Alertness as a bonus feat. Oh and dark elves have that Light Blindness ability (which costs a feat to remove) which can be a serious weak point, especially if your enemy realizes it. Between its natural weapon and shortbow prof I'd say the dark elf is slightly ahead, but any fighting class will buy you all the weapons you want.</p><p></p><p>People do actually consider the Dark Elf a decent LA +2 (as opposed to people who think Genasi are a very weak +1). Your satyr as written makes it silly to NOT play one. You add in pipes and its easily LA +4. It may not be as good as a half-fiend in pure combat, but some of its abilities are well worth it (and a Half-fiend's DR/magic is worth SO much less than a Satyr's, even if does eventually become DR 10/magic).</p><p></p><p>The only way this race is balanced at LA +2 is if you take the Fey levels as the MM requires. I could see reducing it from 5 to 3. Keep in mind this is for a balanced 3.5 campaign, and since you already seem to skew things in favor of taking Non-PC races (by making Hobgoblin +0) this may not be an appropriate analysis for you. In any estimation, the dark elf is far weaker than the satyr for LA +2. 'Nuff Said.</p><p></p><p>Technik</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Technik4, post: 1086430, member: 7211"] Ok, see above please. Heck, Genasi get a type change (to Outsider) and usually have equal stat adjustments to LA +0 races, along with minor spell-likes at they are LA +1. So trust me: +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha and +4 Hide, +4 Listen, +4 Move Silently, +4 Perform, +4 Spot LA +1. Getting the [Fey] type and Damage Reduction 5/Cold Iron is definitely worth at least LA +1. Again, compare them to Genasi or any other LA race that gains a new (non-humanoid) type. Its by and large more powerful because things like Charm Person, Hold Person, and others that specifically affect humanoids don't affect you. There aren't any good examples but you are living in the past if you think "just" 5 DR isn't good. For any type of warrior thats a good chance of ignoring 5 pts per swing, unless your opponent is specifically gunning for you (or happens to have that material). Check your modules, this is way huge. LA +2 (total) +4 Natural Armor and +10 Speed is easily worth LA +1. Compare to the Gray Orc featured in RoF who get little more than a wis bonus (with commensurate negatives) and +10 speed yet are LA +1. LA +3 (total) Ok, pipes are an optional LA +1 to the total. Now, I realize that the more LAs you stack, the greater the bonuses have to be to justify them, but look at the following races and tell me they aren't at least a decent race: Misc +2 Dex, +2 Cha +4 Hide, +4 Move Silently [Fey] Subtype Weirdos +2 Int, +2 Wis +4 Listen, +4 Perform, +4 Spot +2 Nat. Armor +10 Speed Rockmen +2 Con +2 Nat. Armor DR 5/Cold Iron Natural Horn Attack Each one of those are easily LA +1. The first makes great rogues, bards or sorcerors. The second can be a light-armored fighter, cleric, or wizard (probably multi) and the third is your heavy guy - fighter, barbarian, paladin, cleric, you name it. The satyr has all of those benefits put together. You compare them to a dark elf, allow me to put their stats by comparison (since you believe them merely a +2). From 3.5 MM: Drow Traits (Ex): [Humanoid (Elf)] +2 Int, +2 Cha Base Speed 30 ft Darkvision 120 feet SR 11+class levels Immunity to Sleep Spells and +2 bonus against enchantments +2 bonus on Will saves against spells +2 Listen, +2 Search, +2 Spot Auto-Detect Secret Doors if within 5 ft. Spell-like abilities: Dancing Lights, Darkness, Faerie Fire Weapon Prof: Hand X-bow, Rapier, and Shortsword Light Blindness LA +2 Satyr Traits [Fey] +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha Base Speed 40 ft Low-light Vision Natural Armor +4 +4 Hide, +4 Listen, +4 Move Silently, +4 Perform, +4 Spot Bonus Feat: Alertness Natural Weapons: Headbutt (1d6) Proficient with all Simple Weapons and Shortbow Damage Reduction 5/cold iron LA +2 (but you must take 5 levels of Fey) Ok, you neglected to mention the bonus feat Alertness and the low-light vision. I think its blazingly clear that a Fey at LA +2 would be over-the heck-powered compared to a Dark Elf. All the Dark Elf has thats [b]better[/b] is SR (and since the dark elf is 2 levels behind, that SR still isn't "awesome"). The skills are ridiculous to compare, even counting the auto-elf detection as 10 skill points (and it sure isn't worth that) the satyr is 4 points up. Thats not including Alertness as a bonus feat. Oh and dark elves have that Light Blindness ability (which costs a feat to remove) which can be a serious weak point, especially if your enemy realizes it. Between its natural weapon and shortbow prof I'd say the dark elf is slightly ahead, but any fighting class will buy you all the weapons you want. People do actually consider the Dark Elf a decent LA +2 (as opposed to people who think Genasi are a very weak +1). Your satyr as written makes it silly to NOT play one. You add in pipes and its easily LA +4. It may not be as good as a half-fiend in pure combat, but some of its abilities are well worth it (and a Half-fiend's DR/magic is worth SO much less than a Satyr's, even if does eventually become DR 10/magic). The only way this race is balanced at LA +2 is if you take the Fey levels as the MM requires. I could see reducing it from 5 to 3. Keep in mind this is for a balanced 3.5 campaign, and since you already seem to skew things in favor of taking Non-PC races (by making Hobgoblin +0) this may not be an appropriate analysis for you. In any estimation, the dark elf is far weaker than the satyr for LA +2. 'Nuff Said. Technik [/QUOTE]
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