The Death of Simulation

[apoptosis]

On the DM-proofing thread, I am arguing that this is probably not true of 4e - that many of the changes do help a (certain sort of) narrativist agenda. Do you have a view on that?

Hey Peryton,

I think this is where I am having an issue....

Does increasing PC power (i dont mean necessarily power as in spell power or combat power) necessarily increase what we think of as narrativist agendas.

That is my disconnect and would love to hear support one-way or the other.

 

[LostSoul]

So, lost soul, do you agree with THAT analysis? (I know that BE is one of your favorite systems.)

Yeah, kind of. I've never really liked Fight! all that much (I prefer the simpler Bloody Versus because I feel like it gets right to the point of the conflict). Duel of Wits I haven't experienced any problems with; I think it's because everything is about the conflict in a way that Fight! actions aren't.

The Infection mechanics in BE seem to create "incoherence" as well. I think the fact that it's presented (or how I have been presenting it) as a challenge between players and GM causes problems; winning becomes the main goal, pushing the thematic interests aside.

 

[marune]

I generally agree that it could help, but I think that it is an unintentional consequence of their desire to increase some gamist elements.

The players have more control in certain things, my issue is that I am not sure that their increased power will reflect their ability to investigate their characters goals and themes.

I think there are some elements to increase "Story Now" but that is I think based off their desire to not have the 15-minute adventuring problem.

I thought you had a good analysis definitely, I am just still trying to tie it back to the players ability to center the story on their characters and to increase their ability to introduce elements based on the players desires.

I agree with you apoptosis.

However, don't forget that even if on the mechanical side, the gamist over sim seems to be clear, that doesn't mean that the game will be preseted with a clear gamist mindset.

For instance, Bill Slavicsek said that the DM is not a opponent but a storyteller* when writting 4E basic outlines for the designers.


*That's not nar, but sim

 

[marune]

Yeah, kind of. I've never really liked Fight! all that much (I prefer the simpler Bloody Versus because I feel like it gets right to the point of the conflict). Duel of Wits I haven't experienced any problems with; I think it's because everything is about the conflict in a way that Fight! actions aren't.

For my part, I didn't say I dislike Fight! or Duel of Wits (because Artha plays a large role in them).

The thing to remember is to use Fight! only in really important combat, i.e. the one that is the longest scene in the movie (Obi-Wan vs Anakin, etc.)

In fact, my ideal RPG would probably be a layered gamist/nar game like BW (Damn I hate the lifepaths!).

 

[apoptosis]

I agree with you apoptosis.

However, don't forget that even if on the mechanical side, the gamist over sim seems to be clear, that doesn't mean that the game will be preseted with a clear gamist mindset.

For instance, Bill Slavicsek said that the DM is not a opponent but a storyteller* when writting 4E basic outlines for the designers.


*That's not nar, but sim

I agree totally.

HOw the game is presented can be very different than how the rules make the game playout.

I think WhiteWolf had this problem. It presented itself as a modern horror game that was about losing your humanity to vampirism (narrativism), but it really played out as a vampire superhero game I always felt (very gam/sim).

 

[Craw Hammerfist]

You still run into other sim problems (i am sure you knew this, i am saying this in a good way)

Why does fire resistance/immunity help if it concussive damage. Why does it melt metals but not catch stuff on fire.

Of course the players handbook was never supposed to be a chemistry, biology or physics manual (thank goodness, those are very dry and I am a scientist).

Oh, I agree with you. In reality a sizable explosion in a building, a la fireball would literally bring down the house. The question is how do you account for differing worldviews between players?

 

[HeinorNY]

*That's not nar, but sim

The SimDM is not a storyteller, he is GOD. What he does is to say to the players the consequences of their actions and omissions.
He is GOD as an embodiment of the "laws of physics" of the gameworld. He is neutral, imparcial and uninterested. He is a judge.

The SimDM is a Judicator.

He also roleplays the NPCs of course

 

[LostSoul]

Why, thank you. That is the most cogent explanation for the sim-gamist issue I have heard. It does, however, raise a problem with point of view. You are assuming that a fireball would catch things on fire.

I think this is a good reason why the DM needs to be the one who resolves these kinds of disputes. I also think it's a good reason for Rule 0 - if the game rules say something that don't fit with the simulated material, you need the DM there to deal with it.

Fireball doesn't say that things catch on fire, and we think that's stupid, so the DM steps in and rules that it does.

I don't think that authority needs to rest with the DM necessarily, but I think that's a good way of dealing with those types of issues.

Of course, I don't really "get" sim play, so I could be wrong.

 

[apoptosis]

For my part, I didn't say I dislike Fight! or Duel of Wits (because Artha plays a large role in them).

The thing to remember is to use Fight! only in really important combat, i.e. the one that is the longest scene in the movie (Obi-Wan vs Anakin, etc.)

In fact, my ideal RPG would probably be a layered gamist/nar game like BW (Damn I hate the lifepaths!).

I in theory like lifepaths but it is a bit much crunch.

Have you played Shadow of Yesterday. Right now it is my goto fantasy game.

It is very gamist/nar. i read Bringing Down the Pain, and initially hated it as it was SO different. NOw I love it.

It is nice as it lets the players decide when to Zoom in on the action.

 

[apoptosis]

Oh, I agree with you. In reality a sizable explosion in a building, a la fireball would literally bring down the house. The question is how do you account for differing worldviews between players?

Whoever brought the beer* and cheetos of course.

*or other similarly popular drink