The Death of Simulation

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ok, I hope this one is a troll but anyway...

Ever saw a movie or series like 24 ? That's basically what happens in them.

Indeed there is some "narration" between the conflicting scenes (where the rules are used), done by the GM or the players.

Edit : some Nar games have more structured narrative than what I suggested above (Soap comes to mind).

The best education I ever got in narrativist games was through My Life With Master. The game system revolves around one die roll per scene, and there are very specific rules regarding what successes and fails entail in broad terms that set up future scenes in much the way that LostSoul describes with the orphanage below. The game is designed to model a set of dysfunctional relationships that revolve around the player characters, who are hated and feared by the townspeople, and in turn hate and fear their master, but who build real connections to other human beings--which constitutes the conditions for victory.

It might sound totally fruity if you're not used to it, but it works really well and makes for some excellent gameplay, even among gamers who aren't used to a narrativist game and would have no idea what to do without a lot of structure to direct them.

 

[Reynard]

Well, maybe you just got back from the dungeon, your pack stuffed with gold, looking to burn it on magic items, ale, and whores.

You're approached by the cleric who's been helping you out since level one. He tells you that the orphanage burned down and they need some cash to get it back in shape. What do you do?

Let's say you tell him to get lost - the cleric in your party can cast Raise Dead, you don't need him or his wands of cure light wounds any more.

The next time you're in town, the streets are full of urchins. The DM asks for a Spot check - the DC's pretty low, since the 7-year-old commoner who's trying to cut your purse has a low Sleight of Hand skill. You deal with him however you want.

You sit down at your favourite tavern. You notice new whores in the back room. A lot of them are young. Really young. What do you do?

But something like this -- nice scenario/action vs consequences bit there, by the way -- isn't reallt tied to any of the "models" of play, is it? I mean, this could just as easily be a DM trying to plausibly simulate what happens in a town when the small group of people capable of making a difference -- the PCs -- decide not to. His intent isn't necessarily to make the PCs face the theme of poverty. His intent might be to carry the PCs actions to their logical conclusion based on the simulated setting. Or am I off base?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

But something like this -- nice scenario/action vs consequences bit there, by the way -- isn't reallt tied to any of the "models" of play, is it? I mean, this could just as easily be a DM trying to plausibly simulate what happens in a town when the small group of people capable of making a difference -- the PCs -- decide not to. His intent isn't necessarily to make the PCs face the theme of poverty. His intent might be to carry the PCs actions to their logical conclusion based on the simulated setting. Or am I off base?

Well, is the focus on having a realistic set of consequences for their actions, or to make them face up to the consequences of their actions? Depending on which aspects of the situation the DM and players choose to focus on, it could go either way, but each would make for a different sort of game.

 

[Reynard]

Well, is the focus on having a realistic set of consequences for their actions, or to make them face up to the consequences of their actions? Depending on which aspects of the situation the DM and players choose to focus on, it could go either way, but each would make for a different sort of game.

I'm all for the first; not so much for the second (just as a matter of preference, mind). This is due mostly to the fact that there's nothing in the world you can do to make a player "face up" to the consequences if they are not interested in doing so, whereas as DM you can always show those consequences.

 

[apoptosis]

I'm all for the first; not so much for the second (just as a matter of preference, mind). This is due mostly to the fact that there's nothing in the world you can do to make a player "face up" to the consequences if they are not interested in doing so, whereas as DM you can always show those consequences.

That is true. Narrativist play is DEFINITELY not for players that are not interested in playing it.

This goes back to the fantasy toolbox idea. No game is well suited to do a lot of different things. I would not play a game whose strength is about exploring themes with players who arent interested. I wouldnt play a sim game if I wanted to have mechanics that explore themes either.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm all for the first; not so much for the second (just as a matter of preference, mind). This is due mostly to the fact that there's nothing in the world you can do to make a player "face up" to the consequences if they are not interested in doing so, whereas as DM you can always show those consequences.

Right, but remember that in a narrativist game, it's not just about what the DM does. The players have to be playing along too. Whether it's easy or hard to keep them "on task" in that regard depends on an intersection of the game mechanics and the participant expertise.

 

[LostSoul]

But something like this -- nice scenario/action vs consequences bit there, by the way -- isn't reallt tied to any of the "models" of play, is it?

You're right on base. That could be an example of narrativist, simulationist, or even gamist play, but you can't really tell from just a little snippet like that. All the social stuff going on around the table is absent, for example.

I do think it shows how narrativism can be, and that it isn't some totally crazy thing that wouldn't be recognized as role-playing.

 

[gizmo33]

Ok, I hope this one is a troll but anyway...

Wasn't a troll. I was serious. I haven't seen 24 but I suppose there are no other examples? Narration where the character tells you how they feel about something would be like you telling your fellow players at the table? And that's what is meant by "exploration?" I'm surprised, not only that this makes sense to somebody, but that it makes so much sense that you'd expect anyone who doesn't get it to be a troll.

 

[marune]

I haven't seen 24 but I suppose there are no other examples? Narration where the character tells you how they feel about something would be like you telling your fellow players at the table? And that's what is meant by "exploration?" I'm surprised, not only that this makes sense to somebody, but that it makes so much sense that you'd expect anyone who doesn't get it to be a troll.

Where did you get the "character tells you how they feel about something" idea ?

I give the movies or fast-paced tv-series example because they usually skip much details between the important scenes which depict a conflict (that's called scene framing*).

exploration (with a minus e) in my previous post only means "that's what we will be doing in the game".

In Nar play, exploring the premise (the question) means that the GM will throw at the players conflicting situations where the players will have to give an answer.

That could be done as much in a monster-infested dungeon as in any complex political setting.

Let's elaborate the dungeon example.

In Gamist play, the encounters in the dungeon are opportunities for player to shine at overcoming challenges through tactics and guts decision, to take risks, etc.

In Sim play, the encounters are there to show at the players what it is to explore a dungeon, what kind of creatures you can meet there, what kind of dangers you can face there and how adventurers can survive them. (Other variations are possible).

In Nar play, the encounters are there to address the premise in a specific context. For example, the "end justify the means?" question can be asked when the adventurers capture an monstrous (but minimally intelligent) inhabitant of the dungeon, torturing him to save their asses from the other creatures or giving him a quick death ?

At this point, you could say that the torture thing can happen too in Sim play. The difference is that in Sim play, the answer is found in the character's definition and that in Nar play it is found in the player's feelings.


*scene framing can also be done in gam/sim play.

 

[LostSoul]

Wasn't a troll. I was serious. I haven't seen 24 but I suppose there are no other examples?

What did you think about my example?

Narration where the character tells you how they feel about something would be like you telling your fellow players at the table?

It's like an author saying something about life through the theme of his story.