The Death Spiral

[heirodule]

A post on the general boards about D&D's flaws mentioned that loosing HP doesn't penalize you until you fall unconcisous.

Fixing this, unfortunately requires the 'death spiral' where you get weaker and less able to deal with teh challenge as you get wounded, and it makes your death much more certain as you get wounded, which never seems like very much fun.

What if there were an action point system where you only got those action points through injury. Or some kind of mechanic where you suffer penalties from wounds, but have more ad hoc ways, or more mechanically 'tense' ways of handling problems as you get weaker.

A perverse incentive to get hit in combat, probably, but any thoughts?

 

[Rothe]

I've used a "death spiral" approach for over a decade. In practice it actually benefits PCs, at the exspense of complicating the DMs life. Weaker hordes of creatures are likely to suffer the most, while in those situations where it is PCs on one big monster the ijured can fall back.

Does it make PCs easier to kill yes, but it hurts monsters even more. Whether it is less fun to be easier to kill is a matter of personal taste. Those I've played with like the extra grit it provides.

In implementation, I've found a true "spiral" is way too difficult to manage. A simple step is enough. Where you set that step determines the feel of wounding. Suffering wound effects when you recieve 50% or more of your HP damage is a quick and easy way to implement it. Dividing by 2 is an easy mathematical operation so a DM can do it on the fly for those 20 orcs.

What's the effect? Depends on how bad you want to make it. Whatever it is I'd suggest a -n to both to hit and AC.

 

[DreamChaser]

well, since hit points in D&D don't represent anything but are merely an abstraction of how long you can fight, the death spiral makes little sense.

it sounds like you are envisioning some sort of limit break or overdrive idea, where you build up to a despiration move or something.

 

[RangerWickett]

Here's a really simple idea:

Everyone gets Wound Points equal to their Constitution. When you run out of hit points (HP), further damage you take goes to WP. If you have no HP but have at least 1 WP, you're conscious but staggered (one partial action per round) and sickened (-2 to attacks, damage, saves, and checks). When you have no WP, you fall unconscious and start bleeding, until you die at -10. If you have Diehard, you avoid being sickened, and you automatically stabilize if you fall unconscious.

Most creatures simply stop fighting when they reach 0 HP, since they're at a disadvantage and don't want to die. PCs and named NPCs keep fighting if it makes sense.

 

[Squire James]

You know, I have some nagging feeling I've seen that system of tracking wound damage in some book somewhere...

 

[Sravoff]

I personally like the "clobbered" varient from the DMG.

If its not copyright infringement I'll post the basics here...

 

[The Levitator]

We use the Clobbered Variant and the group really likes its effects on combat strategy. We also implement Fatigue into combat too. At 50% HP, creature becomes Fatigued unless they make a successful CON check (DC=10-CON Bonus). They must check again at 25% HP with the CON check (DC=15-Con bonus). We also did away with creatures being automatically being unconscious at -1 HP. We allow a CON save of (DC=10 + what level you enter into negative HP - CON Bonus). For example, if you have a 14 CON and a hit that puts you to negative puts you to -5, you can make a CON save of DC=13 (10+5-2) to remain conscious. In addition, once you go to negative HP, you add your CON score to increase the maximum negative for dead. When that hit takes you to -5 HP with your 14 CON, you die at -24, not -10. Stabilization is only 5% per round once you pass -10.

The reason for all of these changes is that we play in a low magic availability world. Healing potions and spells also have a much slower rate (depending on healer level) that makes healing during combat relatively ineffective. Healing in our system takes a few minutes not a fewe seconds. This discourages potion chugging during combat and makes healing a more miraculous event in the game. My players wanted a grittier combat experience, and these are some of the changes we came up with.

We also use Opposed Defense Rolls, ArmorDR, Attack and Defense Challenges from IH, and Stunts from IH.

 

[Rothe]

Levitator, like what you describe regarding healing potions and fatigue. We're also running a low magic item availability camoaign (only scrolls and potions can be bought). Not to get too far off topic but we also use something similar for fatigue, basically a check to see if you increase in fatigue by one category. Good to see some similar approaches to a grittier feel.

On the healing potion idea I like it a lot think I'll try to incoporate that, at least in the beginning as a "weaker heal potion" or maybe the generic version, same active ingredient it just works a little slower.

 

[The Levitator]

I will do my best not to derail this thread, but the fact that we use a different healing rate does directly affect the death spiral effect in our system. Here's the set up we use for healing potions and spells.

• Healing is NOT instantaneous. The rate of recovery depends on the level of the healer. This makes healing more miraculous and keeps combat dangerous as you can’t just pop healing potions and be “invincible” during combat. In addition, the cost to have potions and magical items created by clerics will have the same recovery rate as the cleric who created it. It costs much more to have a healing potion created by a 10th level cleric than it does a first.




Cleric Level Recovery Rate Item Cost Mult.
1-4 1 HP/8 rds. Standard
5-8 1 HP/4 rds. x1.5
9-12 1 HP/2 rds. x2
13-16 1 HP/rd. x2.5
17-20 2 HP/rd x3