The Devil's in the Details: Slavicsek reveals the Pit Fiend in all its glory

[Fifth Element]

Is anyone else bothered by the poor writing?

<snip>

Sigh. I'm still looking forward to 4th edition. I'm just tired of bad writing.

Are we really at the point of examining each adjective used to determine whether it was really necessary?

This is an excellent bit of preview they've given us, and all we can do is complain about a few specific phrases?

 

[Brig]

Ah, so this is where the real discussion is. The news item only has a page and a half of discussion!

I think that this monster is a wuss, a chump, a loser and worst of all, boring for the DM to run. At 26th level, a monster should be able to do more then just one of 3 possible options. He should have choices that are interesting! Instead, he sits back and... blows up his own minions? I can't imagine him lasting too long in combat, since his damage-dealing just does not seem too impressive. Remember, HPs are going UP in 4th Ed. and there are going to be a lot more sources of healing. A lot of people are saying that it's because you should now expect to face a number of foes all at the same time. Well, that doesn't make sense to me. Am I supposed to assume that the PCs will be fighting five of these guys at once? That's not streamlining combat -that's turning the game into Gauntlet.

Your should not be facing a numbe rof pit fiends but he should have allies in addition to his summoned devils. He is considered an elite (leader) monster so there should be other monsters to fill other roles in the combat. One of his more powerful and memorable abilities is to move two of his allies around the battlefield axhibiting an interesting battlefield control aspect to the pit fiend. I also would not underestimate the use of this battlefield control. I can think of numerous interesting tactis to use with him that should give PCs a satisfying encounter (though I do not know exactly what 26th level PCs will look like and I could change my opinion). Color me impressed and excited by this preview.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I'm not seeing anything from this preview to port to my 3.5 game.

Anyone staying with 3.5 see anything interesting that I may have missed?

Nope, in fact I see several things I really don't like. Especially the complete 2d-ness of the Pit Fiend.

 

[Hjorimir]

Ah, so this is where the real discussion is. The news item only has a page and a half of discussion!

I think that this monster is a wuss, a chump, a loser and worst of all, boring for the DM to run. At 26th level, a monster should be able to do more then just one of 3 possible options. He should have choices that are interesting! Instead, he sits back and... blows up his own minions? I can't imagine him lasting too long in combat, since his damage-dealing just does not seem too impressive. Remember, HPs are going UP in 4th Ed. and there are going to be a lot more sources of healing. A lot of people are saying that it's because you should now expect to face a number of foes all at the same time. Well, that doesn't make sense to me. Am I supposed to assume that the PCs will be fighting five of these guys at once? That's not streamlining combat -that's turning the game into Gauntlet.

HPs are going up...at 1st level. Overall, without benefit of +CON items, I'm betting you'll see a decrease in HPs overall. The pit fiend is listed as an Elite monster, which means he is 2 of the 4 monsters assumed against a group of 5 characters (I think). So, you can add in another pit fiend or a couple of others as you desire.

Here's what's really worrying me. I'm not impressed with this design and that says to me that, once again, high-level play design has not been given the attention it deserves. Do you remember how the 3rd edition Pit Fiend was a chump? Then, when 3.5 came out they beefed him up significantly. The designers realized that they had erred on the side of caution by too large a margin. Players don't want pushover monsters when you're talking about the iconics. They want a tough, memorable fight. This guy may be tough (lots of HP)... but I'm not so sure about memorable.

I just don't think we know nearly enough to know how tough a pit fiend really is. I do know this, though: When you insert something meant to be an iconic, memorable battle in you game, do you choose a monster that represents an EL equal to that of the group or do you put in something above them? I know that I go above them if I want to really challenge them with something memorable.

 

[Lizard]

So if someone disarms the pit fiend, how much damage does he do with his claws?

Since has a fire aura, do his claw attacks also do fire damage, on top of the aura?

Or can he not make any claw attacks, since they're not listed. Slam? Generic Unarmed?

How much of his armor bonus is the breastplate he's supposed to be wearing, and how much is his thick demonic hide? Someone can Sunder that armor, after all.

Or are these questions, somehow, not relevant to combat, and thus don't need to be in the stat block?

The massive wall-o-numbers which is the 3x stat block does more than tell you their ranks in Profession (Juggling). It gives you data to deal with what happens when what the beasties walks in with isn't there anymore and the combat is still going on. I know that touch AC is now Reflex Defense, and that Armor Class is Reflex+Armor Bonus, but there's no breakdown of where that armor bonus comes from. And, YES, it matters, in real-world play in the "preferred" style of monster-whompin'.

(Or is there now no disarm, no sunder, no armor-destroying spells or effects, etc? Is the mace not "real", but some kind of construct the Pit Fiend can reform at will? The latter is possible, and saves the problem of collecting the mace after he's dead, but it ought to be explicit if so.)

 

[Geron Raveneye]

What amuses me in this thread is the number of people insisting that the ability of the Pit Fiend to summon allies (and in fact, as an elite monster, should be USED as if it was designed with allies in mind) is an asset, and a great idea...while looking back at the Rakshasa/Ogre Mage "redesign" discussions, I see plenty of posters who scoffed at and ridiculed the idea that the CR of either monster was set with their charmed allies and cronies in mind. Really funny that. Seems an edition change can simply polish old ideas and make them palatable all of a sudden.

 

[Lackhand]

If someone can sunder that armor, they're using house rules.

Someone could totally fling a rust monster in his face, though, channeling some alternate-dimension, magical-beast-wrangling Belkar.

 

[Lackhand]

What amuses me in this thread is the number of people insisting that the ability of the Pit Fiend to summon allies (and in fact, as an elite monster, should be USED as if it was designed with allies in mind) is an asset, and a great idea...while looking back at the Rakshasa/Ogre Mage "redesign" discussions, I see plenty of posters who scoffed at and ridiculed the idea that the CR of either monster was set with their charmed allies and cronies in mind. Really funny that. Seems an edition change can simply polish old ideas and make them palatable all of a sudden.

I'd have agreed with that notion if there were a handy list of what those companions might have been in the stat block or writeup.

there is a madness to my method.

 

[Lord Zack]

My major problem with these stats is that the pit fiend only has one choice each round: does he use irresistible command or point of terror? He doesn't have a choice of using frenzy or something else or any other choices. I know they're trying to make monsters easier to run, but I think this goes a bit too far.

 

[Lizard]

If someone can sunder that armor, they're using house rules.

How so? Seriously, I'm asking without sarcasm or rancor.

In 3e, it's based on Armor bonus*5. We don't know what the AB is, but it's somewhere between his Reflex Defense and his Armor Defense. Given the damage output of a level 26 character, and the fact there's almost certainly some kind of Sundering Talent Tree (as it's the kind of fun, dramatic, thing you see in a lot of high fantasy and the 3e *doesn't* do well, making it a perfect 'target' for improvement in 4e), I do not see why the breastplate can't be sundered. Certainly, there's nothing in the writeup which says "The Pit Fiend wears an unsunderable breastplate and has his mace crazy-glued to his hand".