The Devil's in the Details: Slavicsek reveals the Pit Fiend in all its glory

[IanB]

I'm still not grokking.

I thought skills were Attribute Bonus+1/2 level. But if attribute bonus goes up with level, doesn't this send untrained skill checks straight into extra-ludicrous land?

No. It just means that ability checks that *aren't* skills get the same bonus as skill checks.

 

[Rechan]

Actually, I think you're misreading. It's 2xWEAPON + Wis damage. Insert your weapon die wherever [W] is, I would guess.

Well, we have an example of a pick: d8.

So what? 2xd8+Wisdom?

 

[Grog]

It isn't terrible, but remember, thats if all those attacks hit. If his numbers are any guide to other 26th level critters, he's hitting on a ~13+, 8+ if he can get the fear ability off. If he hits with everything, it takes him roughly 5 rounds to take out a roughly equivalent critter.

Odds, are, however, only one of his two attacks will hit, being generous. So more like 8 or 9 rounds, assuming of course, his enemy isn't immune to fire. If they are, he's totally boned, as all he has to rely on is his tail.

His minions will, I think, be his really combat ability.

Also don't forget that +Con items don't exist in 4E, so high-level PCs probably won't have quite as many hit points as you'd expect them to.

 

[Kraydak]

I still don't really understand you, Kraydak. I don't see how the Mace is different from the Vorpal Sword, all things considered. A mace that just "Bam, you're on fire now" ain't bad. How would giving him some other weapon break the math?

His mace isn't given him any bonus to hit or damage (direct, there is an indirect damage bonus with the ongoing fire effect). It is converting his melee damage to fire which is a debuff from a normal mace if fire resistance is per-application a la 3.5 rather than per-round (given how much fire damage he is outputting, you want fire resistance badly). Heck, if 4e energy resistance is per-application, the ongoing fire effect won't have any effect at all against prepared opponents. To put it differently, he probably should be using a NON MAGIC, completely ORDINARY mace in place of his cool firey one.

On the other hand, a plain +4 (he *is* lvl 26) mace stands a good chance of doubling his (weapon) damage output. More, probably. If he is facing people with FR, he will do better with a +4 mace than Frenzying with the flaming one and tail.

Basically, the math is based around d20 roll modifiers (to hit, damage, AC etc...) falling with very tight windows based on monster level. A monster that could reasonably use and afford equipment appropriate for NPCs of his level, will have the potential to have equipment whose bonuses is larger than the window. If so, you can give him the needed bonuses from non-gear sources and keep him from using gear somehow (immersion breaking to me at least if done in a fiat manner), or you give him gear with the appropriate bonuses.

(an amusing 3.5 version of this is barding for low level animal companions. the base animals had natural armor that put them at the needed AC level. putting barding on them gave them absurd armor.)

 

[TwinBahamut]

You think the damage seems low? I just don't see that.

15 fire damage every round just by standing there.
1d12+11 + 5 ongoing damage with mace
1d6+11 + 15 ongoing damage tail/poison (he can do both with frenzy)
2d10+5 damage in a 5x5 burst. Using irresistible command as a minor action.

That's 63 immediate damage on average. Plus 20 ongoing. Plus area of effect damage to others. Plus any damage done by his non-exploded allies which you are forced to fight "for free". That's not small change.

Exactly!

He doesn't do a lot of damage with each hit, and he doesn't have any big attacks, but he can do a lot of things to you all at once and pile on damage against a lot of foes. Considering this guy is only supposed to be 2/5ths of a single encounter, rather than a guy trying to take on the party single-handedly, I think it adds up nicely.

Also, since this guy is only 2/5ths of an encounter, having a limited set of abilities that are distinct and fun (like the awesome Irresistible Command) is a good thing. It would be an awful pain to have to juggle a pit fiend, 2 normal demons of that level, and countless minions and summon legion devil legionnaires if they all had huge ability lists.

But I really do like both the stat block and the Pit Fiend's new signature move. The latter is just great. Getting assigned as a Pit Fiends bodyguard has to be the worst job for a devil... You might as well be called "ammo".

 

[IanB]

For those of you wondering why his tail and melee attack are defined separately but he also has a frenzy attack that uses both, it is probably because when he makes an opportunity attack, he uses the tail or the mace but not both.

 

[Scribble]

On the issue of insufficient options and low damage:

Remember that the pit fiend is an Elite, not a solo. That means there could be one for every two PCs in a standard encounter.

In addition to the pit fiend's normal attacks, he gets up to two, five, or eight other actions from his summoned allies, all of which are at +4 while he is still alive. This already adds a sginificant amount of complexity and damage to a pit fiend encounter.

The apparent lack of options and low damage may be to offset this.

I'm betting elite in addition to meaning 1 for every 2 PCs will describe monsters that routinely stand in the back and let their minions weaken the PCs before doing much of anything... (unless it involves stuff that happens through said minions... like summoning them, blowing them up, making them dance, etc...)

 

[Destil]

With all this talk of the Pit Fiend not doing a lot of damage, I went back to look at the Paladin Smite article.


Emphasis mine.

Here we have a 27th level Per Encounter ability that only does 2xWis+Wis damage.

That doesn't sound like a LOT of damage, either.

I'm guessing the [W] is weapon, not wis. We still don't know how weapon damage progresses (?d6 war pick and all), so it could be a bit more than that. No idea how much, of course.

 

[Tehnai]

Well, didn't they say, at some point, they wanted combat to last a greater number of rounds? (not necessarily a longer amount of real-time)

Making things hurt less kinda does have that effect.

I'm seeing this and thinking how I could use something like it in one of my games. I especially like the lack of Full-round actions. Feels me with joy, it does!

I mean, now, teleporting to some other space, just because I can and my infernal teleportation just feels awesome, is not necessarily a bad tactical choice.

Oh yeah. And to quote Rich Burlew's Order of the Stick: Sacrificing minions: Is there any problems it can't solve?

I mean, seriously, he can blow up his minions!

 

[Lizard]

I'm guessing the [W] is weapon, not wis. We still don't know how weapon damage progresses (?d6 war pick and all), so it could be a bit more than that. No idea how much, of course.

I would also assume the main purpose of the smite is the 'focus an enemy on me' power, and not damage per se.

(And why do people think suicide bomber devils are so cool? To me, it makes everything seem painfully gamey...the summoned devils aren't "really" devils, they're a special effect for an explosion power. I find it almost unbearably cheesy. Can they explode normally? If not, how does he "command" them to explode? The power isn't "Irresistible command" it's "Make Devil Go Boom", which makes one wonder why he can't make the PCs go boom instead...it's an odd sort of power that lets you make a summoned ally explode.)