The Divine and the Defeated

[Messageboard Golem]

Since the gods defeated their titan forefathers in the Divine War, worship in the Scarred Lands has fragmented between the divine races, who call upon the blessings of the gods, and the titanspawn, which draw upon the latent power of their dark lords. Learn all the prayers, rituals, spells, totems, blood magic and worship practices across the Scarred Lands. Witness the avatar embodiments of the gods as they walk the land, and face servants sent from beyond.

 

[KDLadage]

updated on 22-NOV-02

The Divine and the Defeated is to the Scarred Lands what the old Deities and Demigods was to 1st edition D&D games... it is a rather interesting collection of very, very powerful beings and some ways to incorporate them into the setting in meaningful ways. On first glance, they people at Sword and Sorcery Studios have accepted the fact that the 3rd Edition Deities and Demigods may or may not make it into the SRD -- and it will certainly not be anytime soon. So they have their own rules for Divine Beings.

Looking over it, the rules they are using appear to work fine. In fact, the first Deity listed I estimated could do well over 200 points of damage per round not including spells, spell-like abilities or other areas of beefed up power... But in the end, the question is: "Is the book a solid addition to the Scarred Lands setting?" I have to say that it is. The book not only looks at the deities as individuals, it handles them as organizations as well. And it handles them well.

The editing problems that other S&SS books have had do not prevail here. They really seem to have made some real strides towards cleaning up their books and eliminating the errors that have caused problems in the past. Overall, I rate the book as above average. It would be higher were it not for two things: Scarred Lands has some areas that are going to be interesting to witness as the company finds ways to make all of the material they have so far work together without contradiction. Thus, I think this volume is a little pre-mature. Second, although the rules they have for Deities are workable, I think that they will be changing them when the 3/e Deities and Demigods comes out -- making me wonder why I am paying for this... Still, 4 out of 5 ain't bad...

 

[Messageboard Golem]

In the days before Deities and Demi-gods, people wanted to know how to use gods, how they would interact with the peoples of the lands. Before then we only had inklings of what WotC might do. Then came the Divine and the Defeated. Certainly while not the most 100% rules accurate today for divinities, it certainly set the tone overall, not just for the Scarred Lands but for other deity books to come.

The book itself is just a hardbound book similar to R&R 1, with a small eight point star with smaller point beside each on. The center part of the star has the map of Ghelspad. Over head, in bright gold letters is the title. The interior artwork has some lovely pieces (such as the fight between the Eight Victors and the Titan Mesos), and some not so lovely pieces (such as the Avatars of Corean, who I think looks fat in his armor, and Vangal, who doesn't appear as fearsome as he should be.)
Still it's all good, in the overall sense.

The book is laid out into 8 basic chapters, as well as having a preface by one of the lead developers, Anthony Pryor.

The introduction is short, not really much to speak of but again, shows us the perspective of one of the main NPCs, that of Emili Derigesh, holy ruler (of sorts) and head man of the clerics in Mithril and indeed around much of Ghelspad for those that follow Corean.

Chapter 1 History chapter is a probably the most detailed part of the book, and certainly the most welcomed, since this is pre-SLCS. The history sections also talk about the dealings of the gods as well as providing a deeper insight to the nature of each titan. Overall I felt this was the strongest section in the book.

Chapter 2 dealt with the gods as well as their divine qualities. Personally I liked these better in some ways than what was used in D&Dmg. The Eight Victor's Avatars are used and that's what they are, Avatars, not the actual gods. While the details vary on each god's followers, the best parts were reading what each god could do with his/her weapon as well as the actual CHARACTER of each god. Another thing I liked and I wish there had been a few more, were new domains for Chardun and Hedrada. I would like to see a Pestilence domain or a Disease domain for Vangal or a Madness domain for Belsameth. Weather/Storm type domain for Enkili would have been nice too. But what I REALLY like about this was the fact they put in the invocation benefits. Here a person could pray for a god to aid them in some skill or in combat if he needed it. This way, players had a tangible reason to worship a god, since often these worshippers could recieve such benefits.

Chapter 3 is sort of new thing for many, since the Eight Victors are the one most everyone knows. Now though we know there are 10 demi-gods. While they probably wouldn't BE demi-gods else where, here in Ghelspad and probably around the Scarred Lands, their worship is pretty much regional, save perhaps for Drendari, the Lady of Shadows and Nemorga, the N God of death and the dead. If you want a listing i'll give it to you right now.

Drendari, Lady of Shadows, CN, Domains: Chaos, Entrancement, Shadow
Erias, Lord of Dreams, CG, Domains: Chaos, Dream, Good, Magic
Goran, Lord of Dwarfs, LG, Domains: Earth, Good, Lawy, Strength
Hwyrrd, the Rogue, god of Halfings N, Domians: Luck Protection, Trickery
Idra, the Courtesan CN, goddess of pleasure and courtesan, Domains: Chaos, Entrancment, Secrets
Manawe, Mother of the Oceans, CN, Domains: Chaos, Entrancement, Travel, Water
Nalthalos, Lord of the Dark Elves, LE, Domains: Construst, Evil, Law
Nemorga, The Grey King, N, Domains: Death, Gateways, Knowledge, Travel
Sethris, the Spider Queen, NE, Domains: Death, Evil, Vengeance
Syhanna, the Cloudmaiden, NG, Domains: Air, Fey, Good, Rainbow

There is also a short write up of demi-gods but they aren't nearly as long as the ones already mentioned here. Like the gods there is also some information about their worshippers as well as invocation benefits.


Chapter 4 talks about the new domains, most for the Demi-gods but also about the two new ones for Chardun and Hedrada, Judgement and Domination. Most are already mentioned here but I'll put them up anyway.
Constructs
Domination,
Dream
Entrancement
Fey
Gateways
Judgement
Rainbow
Secrets
Shadow
Vengeance.
Also in this chapter were new spells and new true rituals associated with the gods as well as those with the new domains.

Chapter 5 talks about the Earth Mother, the Titaness Denev. Here we also see her invocation type of benefits. While she's not a god, she certainly has her share of followers in her Druids. It was a wonderful chapter certainly another highlight for me.

Chapter 6 was probably the best since it dicussed the "Fiends" of these Scarred Lands, the Titans. We got to see them indepth as well as understand their motivations as well as that of their children, the gods. My two favorite titans though had the best chapters, Chern and Mormo. Chern because of his massive destructive side and his favorite creation, Vangal. Mormo, because we got to see the battle that destroyed her AND also learn more deeply about her followers.

Chapter 7, like chapter 4, talks about new spells and true rituals that are often used by the followers of the titans, even a few about Denev. It also has a short section on some new artifacts and magical items.

Overall I found this book VERY good and useful, if you're running a Scarred Lands campaign. If you aren't...well perhaps you'll enjoy the news spells and domains. In any case this certainly WAS a good book, but I did feel that a few more domains for the other 6 gods WOULD have been nice. That said, this is a good book.

 

[gambler1650]

In my reviews I rarely give 1's, just as I rarely give 5's. While production qualities matter, the content is what determines a final rating. Good pictures or unique ideas won't save a product from a poor review, but it might push a good one slightly higher. Functionality first, then the flash if you please. Price is also generally taken into consideration. A quick summary of my personal ratings:

1 - Lazy, incomplete, shoddy effort. So disgusted I'm likely only to open it again to review it.
2 - Below average. Not completely unhappy I bought it since it probably has some good ideas.
3 - Average/Good. I got approximately what I expected in terms of content and quality. No major flaws and useful.
4 - Very Good. I got more than I expected. Inspired me enough to think about using it down the road.
5 - Excellent. The cream of the industry. I immediately want to use it somewhere. Excellent production values.

The first thing I'll say about this book is that unless you're running a Scarred Lands campaign, or don't mind just reading about a history of a land that you'll never use, consider this book to have a rating of 1 for your purposes. Except for a few pages worth of spells for the gods and the titans, there's almost nothing that can be picked up and dropped into another campaign setting. The only other crunchy bits are statistics for the gods' avatars, heralds and pages, or some of the followers of the Titans. Another difficulty with this book in reviewing it is that a lot of it has been repeated (in less detail) in later books, especially in the Scarred Land Campign Setting: Ghelspad sourcebook. However, if you want to use the specific heralds, pages or even avatars you'll need access to this book.

Let's describe the book in a bit more detail:

Chapter 1: This book has the most overlap with previously published material, being mainly a history of Scarn and a brief overview of the Titans, the creation of the gods and the various conflicts including the first battles of the gods against the Slarecians (a previously strong race that came from beneath the ground) and then finally the Divine War. Nice writing and definitely gives a good feel for the pantheon of both Titans and gods.

Chapter 2: There's a small section at the beginning describing how players are most likely to encounter the gods. They aren't beings that are merely prayed to and can have their divine energy siphoned from by clerics. In times of great need, and this soon after the Divine War there are many great needs, their pages act on behalf of their gods and the heralds, and even avatars can manifest themselves on Scarn relatively regularly. The gods are prevented from attacking each other directly, so their followers further their agendas. Each god has its avatar described and statted (though any standard AD&D party isn't going to be more than a mosquito - the stats are primarily there in case needed for an earthshattering event - and even if something manages to kill the avatar, the god is still alive and will be able to manifest the avatar again before long). You get a description of each god's avatar, the invocation benefit a character can expect when praying to the god (anywhere from +1 to +3 for a specific task depending on how many rounds the character invokes the god), a description of how the god fights and full descriptions of the weapons, armor and other artifacts they carry - which they sometimes bestow briefly on a worthy follower. Then the Herald (a 20th level party might actually be able to affect one of these) who precedes its god to the mortal plane either to announce its coming or to perform important acts, is described including history and how it fights and any items it carries. Then the Page of the god is described.

Each god's worship is then described, though I found this section a bit wanting... It usually describes how the average person worships the god, any subsects of the religion, and a bit about that god's "Heaven or Hell", but little mention is usually made of any large scale gatherings, the clothing that the clergy wears, and even any rituals performed by the clergy. Little is also mentioned regarding rivalries or even enmity between clergies of different gods. Yeah, some of these elements are described for some of the gods, but there's no real coherent format. I would have preferrerd subsections in a consistent format describing the Clergy, Holy Days, Raiment, Worship Rituals, Afterlife, Common Folk Worship, Goals, etc.. As is, I really got little feel for how the worship of any god could be portrayed by a DM. I would have found this far more useful than how the gods fight for instance, since that's something that'll be more or less description anyhow since the characters will have little effect on such a circumstance. On the plus side, you get a good feel for the gods on a personality level.

Chapter 3: Here you get the demi-gods. Whereas the 8 main gods covered each alignment except Neutral, these are more scattered. Their avatars and heralds are closer to an AD&D party's power level, but otherwise the same format is used in describing them as for the gods.

Chapter 4: These are the spells that the clerics of the gods can use, including a whole host of new domains, corresponding domain spells at each spell level, and a granted power for each cleric of that domain. Then there are 10 pages of new spells, which could be potentially used in other campaign worlds with some modification. Many of these spells are quite creative, though some are unlikely to be wanted by an average character.. rather they'll have them cast on them by someone else. Judgement of Gold for instance transforms an avaricious criminal into Gold at a public sentencing, and if any greedy individuals try to take advantage by hacking off a hand for instance, that golden hand turns into flesh and blood. Neat, but unlikely to be used by an average character.

Chapter 5: Devev, the Earth Mother is described here. She's an unusual one, being a Titan who rebelled against her siblings and melded with the land afterwards to help heal it. Because much of her power comes from the land, her humanoid form is much weakened (though equivalent to the avatar of one of the main gods). While she has no ability to grant invocations, not being a god, she does have minor rites which more or less act in the same way. Her chapter follows the same format as for the gods though her adherants are a bit more fully described.

Chapter 6: This chapter describes the Titans, in particular how they affected the world before the Divine War, how they were defeated, and the effects of their defeat on Scarn (the Blood Sea's warping of all creatures within it after Kadum was cast down there, etc). Additionally the followers are described including in some cases a description of how they hope to return their Titan to Scarn again. This latter part is quite probably the most useful element to a DM running a Scarred Lands game, out of anything else in the book, generating whole campaign outlines in one stroke.

Chapter 7: The final chapter includes a few spells and "True Rituals" for the druids and true worshippers of each Titan. It also includes a few new magic items which are parts of a sundered Titan that gives another unique element to the world of Scarn.

A Scarred Land character sheet is provided and then a few pages of advertisements and an excerpt from a Scarred Lands novel. I couldn't help but feel this space might have been better used by a table listing the holy days of each god, or something.

In conclusion, this is really a "flavor" supplement. Almost nothing in here will be of direct benefit to the players except for a few spells, and it's more or less a history of Scarn and a description of the personalities of the gods. Clerics even will find that there's little for them to help them portray their character's worship better, and many of the elements that you would expect to find in a pantheon book like raiment, holy days, rituals, relations with other clergy, etc are missing. Maybe that's intended, since the gods are relatively 'new' and their worship hasn't settled into ritual yet, but the book itself feels 'light' at the end of it. A DM can do a round by round fight between Madriel and Belsameth's avatars, but he can't tell his cleric what a service for Madriel is like. The book also suffers a bit with the arrival of Ghelspad's campaign setting sourcebook since much of the history is repeated there, in more detail, and the description of the gods and titans are also there.. though not as detailed in this case.

Nevertheless, the book is invaluable to the Scarred Lands DM though it might not seem immediately obvious (see the comments below for the tortured route I came to the final rating). While individual modules and area supplements may go into the worshippers of a titan or god in more detail, here you have all the titans - including ones only sketchily described in the Ghelspad sourcebook. You have how they were defeated, where their remains are, how they might be returned whole again, some of their effects on the world and the races they created. The demi-gods are invaluable too as they are barely mentioned in most other Scarred Lands supplements. The Heralds and the Pages will probably make many an appearance in any Scarred Lands campaign that follows the 'intended feel' and the spells, while many are less useful for the PCs than NPCs, still can give a unique feel for Scarn. If not for the lack of information on 'formal worship' and how the clergy and clerics are expected to worship on a daily basis, especially when some of the flavor information regarding how the gods fight seems a bit superfluous, the book would probably rate a 5.

 

[Messageboard Golem]

I do believe the Player's Guide to Clerics and Druids (due out August of this year) will cover in more detail, stuff about churches, rituals and various sects/cults.

 

[gambler1650]

Ah, very cool. Actually, I noticed that the new domains are described in "Relics and Rituals" so even that part is redundant in "The Divine and the Defeated". I'm debating dropping the rating to 3 because of that since really, the only elements that can't be found anywhere else are a handful of spells and artifacts. When it first came out, the book was probably worth a 4 or even a 5 rating, but now it's largely redundant with other, more useful, books. I'll sleep on it.

 

[Messageboard Golem]

I don't think you should drop the rating just because R&R2 has the domains. Rather it makes sense to have stuff in both books since they deal with important issues.

 

[gambler1650]

Yeah, it's just not for that though. It's more because the usage that I think I'll get out of the book is less than I'd expect for a D20 supplement. I'm still waffling, but because I come from the 'round down' method of rating and because I'm waffling between a 3 and a 4, I'll stick with 3 for now... I just think that a lot of the material is superfluous (though very well written) and just won't be used by the DM in an average campaign.

 

[Psion]

Wow. I consider this book rather essential if you are going to run a scarred lands campaign, mostly because it is so thick with plot elements and other significant details about the titans and their followers. That is a pretty significant chunk of information that you can't find anywhere else.

If you don't plan on playing in SL, I agree that this book will be less useful to you than the R&R books. But I don't necessarily consider that a 3-worthy hit, as it IS a Scarred Lands product.

 

[gambler1650]

Ok, ok.. Y'all convinced me. Actually you didn't. Last night I settled on changing it to a firm, unwavering 4 while I was thinking about it before going to sleep. Yeah there's stuff I consider extraneous (I really think most of the Combat sections for the gods at least could have been cut way back since the only time the DM will really use them will be in fights against a Titan or another god, and those should be avoided since then it's the DM playing out a combat for the players who really won't be able to affect matters unless they have a major artifact - in other words, when players fight gods or titans, much of the information is irrelevant. Yeah, it's nice to know a god's fighting style, but it could have been pared down and more useful elements of their worship included for instance). What really pushed it to a 4 was remembering the demi-gods and the information on the heralds and pages. I'd not realized exactly how important they generally are until I read the Serpent Amphora cycle... Plus the couple of extra titans not covered in depth anywhere else and the information on precisely where their remains are and how they might be restored.. Yup. It's a 4.