The Dodge Feat

[wysiwyg]

I need some input about understanding something about the Dodge feat - the DM and I are in disagreement on this feat. The WoC defines the feat as follows:

DODGE [GENERAL]

Prerequisite: Dex 13.

Benefit: During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent on any action.

A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.

Special: A fighter may select Dodge as one of his fighter bonus feats.


The question is: Can the dodge feat be taken multiple times or not?

My DM says: "Uh, that's a rule for what general bonuses stack with each other, and it does NOT say the Dodge feat stacks with itself. Initiative bonuses stack too, that doesn't mean you can take the Improved Initiative feat and get +8 to initiative! Feats only ever stack with themselves (ie can be taken multiple times) if they say so in the Feat description - eg Toughness."

I say: “Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.” (WoC)
The words “bonuses” (in the plural) stack with each other – According to you (the DM), what’s do the “with each other” refer to?

“unlike most other types of bonuses” – this is an exception, not the rule. Feats that do not stack are clearly stated, eg weapon focus.

 

[DanMcS]

No feat can be taken more than once unless it specifically says so, ie weapon focus.

The reference to dodge bonuses stacking with each other is referring to named bonuses with the type "dodge", not to multiple applications of this feat. That the feat and the bonus have the same name is ever so slightly confusing.

 

[Bastoche]

In the feat entry text it is ALWAYS specified if a feat can be taken multiple times. Therefore each and every feat where it's NOT mentioned cannot be taken multiple times.

 

[mikebr99]

What they said.. no, unless it specifically says so.

Or you have a note from one of the designers that states they just forgot to add that to the description, such as with Leadership...


Mike

 

[Hypersmurf]

Or you have a note from one of the designers that states they just forgot to add that to the description, such as with Leadership...

Really?

I've seen Monte say he allows Leadership to be taken multiple times, and doesn't see a balance problem with it. But I hadn't seen a designer say "The book is wrong" on that point...

Which designer was it?

-Hyp.

 

[The Souljourner]

What everyone else said. Yes, dodge bonuses stack... that has nothing to do with the dodge feat though (maybe they should have called it "combat dodge" like they did with expertise, to make it more clear it's not referring to the type). The feat doesn't say it can be taken more than once, therefor it can't.

-The Souljourner

 

[S'mon]

Thanks guys (wysiwyg's PBP DM)

It never seemed unclear to me that you could only take the Dodge feat once, just like most other feats; OTOH I remember in 3.0 when people were double-empowering spells (without even taking the Empower Spell feat more than once!) and it seemed obvious to me that clearly was against the RAW, yet the Sage supported this! The irony here is that the Dodge feat as written is rather weak anyway, though I boost it a bit by saying it automatically counts vs the first attacker after your action, you don't have to declare a target if you don't want to.

 

[mikebr99]

Really?

I've seen Monte say he allows Leadership to be taken multiple times, and doesn't see a balance problem with it. But I hadn't seen a designer say "The book is wrong" on that point...

Which designer was it?

-Hyp.

That's all I meant by that Hyp... Monte's comments on the feat.

thanks...


Mike

 

[DanMcS]

It never seemed unclear to me that you could only take the Dodge feat once, just like most other feats; OTOH I remember in 3.0 when people were double-empowering spells (without even taking the Empower Spell feat more than once!) and it seemed obvious to me that clearly was against the RAW, yet the Sage supported this! The irony here is that the Dodge feat as written is rather weak anyway, though I boost it a bit by saying it automatically counts vs the first attacker after your action, you don't have to declare a target if you don't want to.

In 3.0, you could double-empower spells; even if that's not what they originally intended, it was what they wrote. In the present case, though, there is nothing unclear about taking a feat more than once.

If you think Dodge is weak, make it a general +1 to AC that applies whenever you're not flatfooted. Less bookkeeping, and it doesn't seem overpowered; we've been doing it in a game I play in, and it's the default rule in other d20 variants like MnM.

 

[Teslacoil1138]

In 3.0, you could double-empower spells; even if that's not what they originally intended, it was what they wrote. In the present case, though, there is nothing unclear about taking a feat more than once.

If you think Dodge is weak, make it a general +1 to AC that applies whenever you're not flatfooted. Less bookkeeping, and it doesn't seem overpowered; we've been doing it in a game I play in, and it's the default rule in other d20 variants like MnM.

That's the way we do it in my group, too. Otherwise it's a pain to keep track of separate AC for the "designated opponent" for Dodge.

Anyway, I see Dodge as just a prerequisite for other feats in the Mobility/Spring Attack feat tree, as well as Karmic Strike. If my character won't be taking any of those others, he sure won't have Dodge on his list either... the bonus is negligible to waste a precious feat on.